5 ms·

as i understand it, those states have seen pushes to leave it up to parents to educate and nurture their kids in early development, carving out a space where th

as i understand it, those states have seen pushes to leave it up to parents to educate and nurture their kids in early development, carving out a space where the state cannot take over for parents, which was not a controversial thing to want for families until recently

a_shovel 5y ago
The Florida Department of Health recently released new guidelines stating "Social gender transition should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." [0] For those unaware, "social gender transition", in addition to changing their pronouns and name, would be things like a trans girl switching to wearing dresses or growing out her hair, or a trans boy cutting his hair or wearing boy's clothes, or engaging in gender-stereotyped interests like dolls, or any other sort of action the kid finds gender-affirming. It does not include any medical procedures. There is no conceivable benefit to the child of preventing this, and it could prevent them from doing many actions that in cisgender children would be seen as ordinary nonconformance to gender stereotypes. That it is included alongside a ban on puberty blockers and hormones and a ban on gender reassignment surgery, and an exception to that for intersex people (which intersex advocates oppose, because some doctors will perform unnecessary and risky surgeries on intersex babies to "correct" their genitals before they can consent), shows that all of these have the same goal: enforcing gender conformity. [0] https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1516773653391806464 https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1516773653391806464
- replygirl 5y ago
  i think it's fair for the department of health to not allow adolescent therapists and psychiatrists to prescribe social transition—there are implications for a parent blocking access to something legally considered a medical treatment. from what i read it seems like parents still have some leeway to respond to their childrens' needs independently, at least on the social side. to be fair i don't think i've seen any policy regime, in effect or proposed, that feels quite right to me. in florida's case i would change the language to allow that sort of prescription subject to parental consent whether it's social or hormonal. on the blockers though, it's not the end of the world that i grow hair on my face and have a little more muscle mass than most women. dysphoria peaks when you first acknowledge it, then slowly subsides over a few years once you're Living Your Truth. i am more than my annoying body > and an exception to that for intersex people this has been an intersex rights issue for much longer than what's in the spotlight right now, and should be considered separately imo. one thing i learned from the intersex people in my life is they don't like intersex concerns being lumped in with trans concerns, even if many do grow up to be, or present as, trans. if we have to consider both at the same time, i would say "leave bodies as they were born until the person inhabiting them is old enough to know what's best for themself" > enforcing gender conformity. elsewhere in this thread i voiced my opinion that contemporary queer ideology has eroded the usefulness of identity markers. to build on that, i also think most liberals (i.e. people who believe "progress" is both real and virtuous) have a pretty narrow idea of how gender nonconformity can present itself
  - Avshalom 5y ago
    It doesn't say therapists and psychiatrists can't prescribe social transition, it says it should not be a treatment option, which means that prohibition applies to peers and family. While simultaneously saying they should provided social support by peers and family and seek counseling from a licensed provider, which kinda means support and counseling have can't take the form of allowing social transition. More generally you keep saying things like "from what I've read"... what have you been reading? The actual texts have all clearly usurped parental rights. Fucking Idaho made it a crime to leave the state to get your kid affirmative care. Who has been splitting what hairs to make any of these seem like they're securing parents' rights?
    - replygirl 5y ago
      > It doesn't say therapists and psychiatrists can't prescribe social transition, it says it should not be a treatment option, which means that prohibition applies to peers and family. that's a very expansive reading of "treatment". a health department doesn't have the sort of authority you suggest. and if they think they do, best of luck to their legal teams in defining the threshold between treatment and ordinary child-rearing. like i said earlier, this should get pretty wacky over the next 20-30 years > "from what I've read"... what have you been reading? the link that shovel sent me to read. > Fucking Idaho made it a crime to leave the state to get your kid affirmative care. Who has been splitting what hairs to make any of these seem like they're securing parents' rights? settle down, i can tell you're provoked without the profanity. idk if you're trans too, but i've outright stated i've been out as a trans woman for a decade, and on top of that i want kids and have friends with kids, so i'd ask that you at least approach what i'm saying in good faith—i've been around, at least wrt this. remember i said "The pushback on that, post-bathroom-hysteria, has largely been to try to reclaim some of parents' ability to know what's going on and to control their child's level of exposure to information", and you projected that i was talking about legislation/regulation when i was really referring to social movements. for what it's worth, i voiced some criticism of the florida memo when shovel linked me to it. the comment box is a pretty depersonalized medium, it encourages misunderstanding and hostility, maybe you need a break.
Avshalom 5y ago
Abbott in Texas has stated any affirming care by parents is grounds to have the children taken away by the state.
- replygirl 5y ago
  didn't the texas supreme court block that?
  - Avshalom 5y ago
    a district court judge issued a temporary injunction but even aside from that distinction, we've seen this same shit with abortion for the last 50 years, do some obvious bullshit, 10 wait for a court opinion, do some new bullshit carefully written to avoid the precise court opinion, GOTO 10.
    - replygirl 5y ago
      hopefully this doesn't become the next political football after abortion. it seems pretty clear to me that both sides want to keep that issue on the table indefinitely—abortion tends to come up whenever something more important is about to come to a head.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

a_shovel 5y ago

The Florida Department of Health recently released new guidelines stating "Social gender transition should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." [0] For those unaware, "social gender transition", in addition to changing their pronouns and name, would be things like a trans girl switching to wearing dresses or growing out her hair, or a trans boy cutting his hair or wearing boy's clothes, or engaging in gender-stereotyped interests like dolls, or any other sort of action the kid finds gender-affirming. It does not include any medical procedures. There is no conceivable benefit to the child of preventing this, and it could prevent them from doing many actions that in cisgender children would be seen as ordinary nonconformance to gender stereotypes. That it is included alongside a ban on puberty blockers and hormones and a ban on gender reassignment surgery, and an exception to that for intersex people (which intersex advocates oppose, because some doctors will perform unnecessary and risky surgeries on intersex babies to "correct" their genitals before they can consent), shows that all of these have the same goal: enforcing gender conformity. [0] https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1516773653391806464 https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1516773653391806464

replygirl 5y ago
i think it's fair for the department of health to not allow adolescent therapists and psychiatrists to prescribe social transition—there are implications for a parent blocking access to something legally considered a medical treatment. from what i read it seems like parents still have some leeway to respond to their childrens' needs independently, at least on the social side. to be fair i don't think i've seen any policy regime, in effect or proposed, that feels quite right to me. in florida's case i would change the language to allow that sort of prescription subject to parental consent whether it's social or hormonal. on the blockers though, it's not the end of the world that i grow hair on my face and have a little more muscle mass than most women. dysphoria peaks when you first acknowledge it, then slowly subsides over a few years once you're Living Your Truth. i am more than my annoying body > and an exception to that for intersex people this has been an intersex rights issue for much longer than what's in the spotlight right now, and should be considered separately imo. one thing i learned from the intersex people in my life is they don't like intersex concerns being lumped in with trans concerns, even if many do grow up to be, or present as, trans. if we have to consider both at the same time, i would say "leave bodies as they were born until the person inhabiting them is old enough to know what's best for themself" > enforcing gender conformity. elsewhere in this thread i voiced my opinion that contemporary queer ideology has eroded the usefulness of identity markers. to build on that, i also think most liberals (i.e. people who believe "progress" is both real and virtuous) have a pretty narrow idea of how gender nonconformity can present itself
- Avshalom 5y ago
  It doesn't say therapists and psychiatrists can't prescribe social transition, it says it should not be a treatment option, which means that prohibition applies to peers and family. While simultaneously saying they should provided social support by peers and family and seek counseling from a licensed provider, which kinda means support and counseling have can't take the form of allowing social transition. More generally you keep saying things like "from what I've read"... what have you been reading? The actual texts have all clearly usurped parental rights. Fucking Idaho made it a crime to leave the state to get your kid affirmative care. Who has been splitting what hairs to make any of these seem like they're securing parents' rights?
  - replygirl 5y ago
    > It doesn't say therapists and psychiatrists can't prescribe social transition, it says it should not be a treatment option, which means that prohibition applies to peers and family. that's a very expansive reading of "treatment". a health department doesn't have the sort of authority you suggest. and if they think they do, best of luck to their legal teams in defining the threshold between treatment and ordinary child-rearing. like i said earlier, this should get pretty wacky over the next 20-30 years > "from what I've read"... what have you been reading? the link that shovel sent me to read. > Fucking Idaho made it a crime to leave the state to get your kid affirmative care. Who has been splitting what hairs to make any of these seem like they're securing parents' rights? settle down, i can tell you're provoked without the profanity. idk if you're trans too, but i've outright stated i've been out as a trans woman for a decade, and on top of that i want kids and have friends with kids, so i'd ask that you at least approach what i'm saying in good faith—i've been around, at least wrt this. remember i said "The pushback on that, post-bathroom-hysteria, has largely been to try to reclaim some of parents' ability to know what's going on and to control their child's level of exposure to information", and you projected that i was talking about legislation/regulation when i was really referring to social movements. for what it's worth, i voiced some criticism of the florida memo when shovel linked me to it. the comment box is a pretty depersonalized medium, it encourages misunderstanding and hostility, maybe you need a break.

Avshalom 5y ago

Abbott in Texas has stated any affirming care by parents is grounds to have the children taken away by the state.

replygirl 5y ago
didn't the texas supreme court block that?
- Avshalom 5y ago
  a district court judge issued a temporary injunction but even aside from that distinction, we've seen this same shit with abortion for the last 50 years, do some obvious bullshit, 10 wait for a court opinion, do some new bullshit carefully written to avoid the precise court opinion, GOTO 10.
  - replygirl 5y ago
    hopefully this doesn't become the next political football after abortion. it seems pretty clear to me that both sides want to keep that issue on the table indefinitely—abortion tends to come up whenever something more important is about to come to a head.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]