3 ms·

This is pretty dismissive of the men who want to work in what you consider low status crappy jobs. There are plenty of men out there who expressly go to school

This is pretty dismissive of the men who want to work in what you consider low status crappy jobs. There are plenty of men out there who expressly go to school with the goal of being an educator, for example. The discrimination those men face is very real. It's ok to admit that there are some areas society has decided men shouldn't work in. It doesn't diminish the struggles of anyone else

bell-cot 5y ago
Yes and no. For instance - there's generally a big gap between "go to school with the goal of being an educator", and being a preschool teacher. At least in the U.S., the latter tends to offer far lower status, pay, job security, etc. than being (say) a 7th grade teacher. Between the low desirability, high turnover, and "we must fill the opening" nature of most bottom-end, female-dominated jobs, I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. Apply a bunch of time, especially when unemployment is low, and it's pretty likely that you'll be hired because they had no acceptable alternative. Or (say) a preschool wanted to have one male teacher, to be a social role model for little boys. Or (I have seen this done) a bookkeeping dept. wanted a couple males, to dial down the social drama that they experienced with a all-female clerkforce. And for those concerned less about individual rights (to get the job one really wants, etc.) than about the larger-scale social downsides of discrimination, making it more difficult for men to obtain some types of low-status, low-pay jobs is a "pretty weak poison".
- basisword 5y ago
  >> I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs Is this not the opposite of the line you quoted from the study? >> "... positive employer response rates were much higher for women than for men."
- rayiner 5y ago
  > I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. Based on what? For example, my wife and I have hired au pairs for many years. There are some men in the program, but almost no families will hire them. We certainly wouldn't. I'd imagine lots of care-adjacent fields are like that.
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  >I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. I'm sorry to say you're definitely, clearly wrong about this. I am not an educator but I travel in those circles and I know at least a half dozen men who wanted to be early childhood educators and just couldn't find work, regardless of the need or their qualifications, and that is by no means a unique story. They all have stories of administrators, HR, etc flagrantly implying they might be pedophiles. It's not just 'the system's fault either, society is strongly prejudiced against men working with young children. The discrimination is real and these men actually suffer for it. I'm not sure how to take your point of it being ok because nobody really wants these jobs anyway. Frankly it's hard to see it as anything other than reprehensible. Plenty of good, intelligent, well adjusted people do these jobs knowing the pay and conditions are terrible because they want to make a difference.
  - bumby 5y ago
    My unverified hunch is that HN skews towards those who value salary as form of status. I've probably more who studied computer science with a primary motivation of making money than I have who love the job itself. And the inverse it true for those I know in teaching. Suffice to say, there may be some value system projection when people say they don't think anybody wants those jobs.
- nullc 5y ago
  > who really want those jobs And why is it, Mr. Anderson, that you appear to really want this job? Could it be that you're a pervert?
temp78162397 5y ago
Thank you, exactly this. I can speak for myself and some of my male friends and say that there have been quite a lot of us who would have loved to become e.g. a kindergartner or a nurse. While some actually did, they would not exactly say they "love it" anymore because of low pay and other harsh working conditions. I did not pursue this dream any longer because I realized that it is hard to find a woman when the majority of women prefer to choose men with high status and income (I do not want to generalize or be sexist here but I have the feeling that most women share this preference). > The discrimination those men face is very real. Yes, definitely. I can somehow understand how parents might be uncomfortable with a male kindergartner going to toilet with their child but there actually are men who can do this without being aroused or harassing the child.

bell-cot 5y ago

Yes and no. For instance - there's generally a big gap between "go to school with the goal of being an educator", and being a preschool teacher. At least in the U.S., the latter tends to offer far lower status, pay, job security, etc. than being (say) a 7th grade teacher. Between the low desirability, high turnover, and "we must fill the opening" nature of most bottom-end, female-dominated jobs, I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. Apply a bunch of time, especially when unemployment is low, and it's pretty likely that you'll be hired because they had no acceptable alternative. Or (say) a preschool wanted to have one male teacher, to be a social role model for little boys. Or (I have seen this done) a bookkeeping dept. wanted a couple males, to dial down the social drama that they experienced with a all-female clerkforce. And for those concerned less about individual rights (to get the job one really wants, etc.) than about the larger-scale social downsides of discrimination, making it more difficult for men to obtain some types of low-status, low-pay jobs is a "pretty weak poison".

basisword 5y ago
>> I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs Is this not the opposite of the line you quoted from the study? >> "... positive employer response rates were much higher for women than for men."
rayiner 5y ago
> I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. Based on what? For example, my wife and I have hired au pairs for many years. There are some men in the program, but almost no families will hire them. We certainly wouldn't. I'd imagine lots of care-adjacent fields are like that.
idiotsecant 5y ago
>I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. I'm sorry to say you're definitely, clearly wrong about this. I am not an educator but I travel in those circles and I know at least a half dozen men who wanted to be early childhood educators and just couldn't find work, regardless of the need or their qualifications, and that is by no means a unique story. They all have stories of administrators, HR, etc flagrantly implying they might be pedophiles. It's not just 'the system's fault either, society is strongly prejudiced against men working with young children. The discrimination is real and these men actually suffer for it. I'm not sure how to take your point of it being ok because nobody really wants these jobs anyway. Frankly it's hard to see it as anything other than reprehensible. Plenty of good, intelligent, well adjusted people do these jobs knowing the pay and conditions are terrible because they want to make a difference.
- bumby 5y ago
  My unverified hunch is that HN skews towards those who value salary as form of status. I've probably more who studied computer science with a primary motivation of making money than I have who love the job itself. And the inverse it true for those I know in teaching. Suffice to say, there may be some value system projection when people say they don't think anybody wants those jobs.
nullc 5y ago
> who really want those jobs And why is it, Mr. Anderson, that you appear to really want this job? Could it be that you're a pervert?

temp78162397 5y ago

Thank you, exactly this. I can speak for myself and some of my male friends and say that there have been quite a lot of us who would have loved to become e.g. a kindergartner or a nurse. While some actually did, they would not exactly say they "love it" anymore because of low pay and other harsh working conditions. I did not pursue this dream any longer because I realized that it is hard to find a woman when the majority of women prefer to choose men with high status and income (I do not want to generalize or be sexist here but I have the feeling that most women share this preference). > The discrimination those men face is very real. Yes, definitely. I can somehow understand how parents might be uncomfortable with a male kindergartner going to toilet with their child but there actually are men who can do this without being aroused or harassing the child.