10 ms·

I admit I'm not super familiar with India's freedom of speech, is this a backslide or has it always been like this?

walrus01 4y ago
the instances of the Indian government censoring the internet are numerous and well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India
noarchy 4y ago
If we start to get a lot of comments here, pay attention. You'll likely see confirmation of recent trends in India. I suspect we're already seeing that, even with the few comments that have been posted so far.
- danamit 4y ago
  I thought it will be different from Twitter and YouTube comments, sad to see Indian IT professionals being part of that too.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    It's only less pronounced for American IT professionals defending the US reputation as y'all have more of a contrarían streak. I think if anything Americans online are more prone to criticize their own country than other places specifically because we have decent freedom of speech.
    - stjohnswarts 4y ago
      ... for now. The right wing SCOTUS is likely to begin upholding racist, sexist, and political decisions as okay in republicans states, they (the 5 far right members) have made no qualms about putting out feelers for such cases in the past, we are just beginning to see how bad it's going to get with challenges to Roe v. Wade (soon to be completely upended), voters rights, and various other cases in the pipeline
  - shasts 4y ago
    Majority of Indians IT professionals or majority who has attended college in India are upper caste folks, the main supporters of current ruling party. So the trend is not surprising. Many of them migrated to West and continue to do the same caste things even in silicon valley. Google the Cisco caste discrimination incident.
    - muzaffarpur 4y ago
      I doubt it. On an average around 70% of seats are reserved (affirmative action) for lower caste students. The difference of admission cutoffs is like day and night. I wouldn't be surprise that people from upper caste don't feel particularly well, for being lawfully, indefinite discrimination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India
      - unmole 4y ago
        > On an average around 70% of seats are reserved (affirmative action) for lower caste students. In which alternate reality?
      - shasts 4y ago
        The Wikipedia link is correct, but you are only seeing one side. Getting into engineering schools requires coaching, which majority can't afford. Second, surviving there requires additional skills that state board educated Dalits and lower castes don't have. You can Google for the number of Dalits and lower castes really getting admitted or finishing the course. https://qz.com/india/2001747/iit-kharagpur-professor-abusing-sc-st-students-is-not-a-one-off/ https://qz.com/india/2001747/iit-kharagpur-professor-abusing...
- morekozhambu 4y ago
  [dead]
leephillips 4y ago
India never had freedom of speech. Opposition newspapers are often harassed and shut down. They have a law criminalizing offending religious feelings. This is not an exaggerated paraphrase, that’s what the law says. A scientist was convicted under this law a few years ago for demonstrating that a “weeping” statue of the Virgin Mary was not actually weeping blood. The truth was offensive, so the law applied. EDIT: I remembered inaccurately. It was a statue of the crucified Jesus, not Mary.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- imdhmd 4y ago
  There is a difference between a law in paper and its enactment. There are various laws in the constitution of india that can be conveniently represented to prosecute someone on the basis of their speech. There is significant evidence of such happenings only increasing lately
- stickfigure 4y ago
  Your point still stands, but there was never a formal prosecution or conviction (he fled to Finland before it got that far): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
  - leephillips 4y ago
    Thanks for the clarification (I was going by memory). So he was arrested, and presumably would have been prosecuted had he not escaped.
- bruceb 4y ago
  He was gone after not because of proving it false, but because he accused the church of purposefully lying I believe. One could call it not much different but it isn't the exact same as being prosecuted for debunking a "miracle" From wikipedia: he skeptic-rationalist author Sanal Edamaruku proved that the water stemmed from a faulty sewage system, which seeped due to capillary action. However, Edamaruku also accused Latin Christian priests of regularly scamming devotees and defrauding miracles to make money, and build bigger and newer churchs or convents,[1] and mocked the Pope as "anti-science".[2] A church representative admitted Edamaruku had the "right to doubt", and Christian activists said that the backlash was not for debunking the alleged "miracle" but for the defamatory statements made live on television.[3]
danamit 4y ago
I remember stories of people beaten up for not standing for the anthem in the cinema, one of them was disabled wheelchair user. So I guess it is like that for a while especially after the Hindutvas got into power.
- zapdrive 4y ago
  Oh yeah, freedom of speech flourished under Congress rule /s Who was the only prime minister to invoke emergency?
  - webartisan 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - MrBlueIncognito 4y ago
    The Nazis killed millions through their actions. Will that justify you killing even one?
    - mayankkaizen 4y ago
      RSS is the ideological parent of currently ruling political party (BJP). The second head and most powerful figure in RSS history was Golwalkar and he openly praised Hitler for 'fighting for his culture'. https://thewire.in/politics/culture-ministry-ms-golwalkar-hitler-caste-muslim-rss https://thewire.in/politics/culture-ministry-ms-golwalkar-hi...
  - mayankkaizen 4y ago
    Indira wasn't a saint but Modi is evil personified. Emergency was invoked and was soon revoked. If you are careful, you can see India is now again under Emergency since 2015. And things are getting worse. The difference between 1975 and 2015 is that earlier it was declared openly but in present case it wasn't declared, rather it was systemically implemented by developing a hate mongering Hindutva brigade. Press freedom was gone for may be one year during 1975. But now? It is gone for good 5 years. In 1975, no particular community was targeted. Now? Every muslim is at risk. Heck, even Hindus who are anti-Modi are at risks. During 1975, journalists were able to protest against Indira Gandhi. And now? You'd be put in jail for whatever reason. No journlist can dare to oppose Modi. India is in worse condition now than it was in 1975.
srvmshr 4y ago
Freedom & freedom of speech aren't equivalent ideas, and most of us Indians do not correctly identify the subtle difference. Hence speech and opinions come under vicious attack instead of productive participation. India sees journalism taking camps (since the era of Mrs. Indira Gandhi' premiership). There are national newspapers & media channels who very overtly align with the political parties. Speaking your mind out comes with its own consequences.
- koshergweilo 4y ago
  Sure even the freest of speech is not free of consequences, but this seems to be a case of the state punishing a specific person for his speech. Partisan media is one thing but this seems to be something entirely different
actuator 4y ago
No, it hasn't been a backslide, it has been always like this. While media in the west will pick certain stories, you can find such events all across the political spectrum. A much lauded and young people supported newcomer party used the police against the members of the party in power at the national level as soon as they came to power in a state and got hold of the police there. It is sad but when courts won't act in time, this abuse of law will keep happening.
pessimizer 4y ago
Absolute freedom of speech is a US Bill of Rights thing, and we backslide when it comes to political or sexual speech, e.g. with political Islam in the 21st century; Communism/Socialism/Anarchism in the early 20th century; and constantly when it comes to anything sexual, especially information about birth control, anything gay, anything involving miscegenation, or anything else that embarrasses a judge or gives him an erection. The difference between the US and other places is that these things are usually reverted after a few decades by appeal to a clearly written first amendment. The most dangerous assault on US freedom of speech has been copyright, which has become an pretense to monitor all communications since sending information about birth control or sending porn through the mail ceased to be a public priority. Vaguely defined "hate speech" is creeping up on becoming a reason for government censorship through the backdoor of "hate crime." "Hate crimes" are proved by proving a regular old crime was committed, then poring through the history of the person who committed the crime looking for "hate speech." "Hate speech" could certainly eventually expand to be indistinguishable from lèse majesté. A certain type of mind can see criticism of the President as a "hate crime."
mayankkaizen 4y ago
Let me tell you my anecdotal experience. Modi came in power in 2014 and till than I was BJP (Modi's party) supporter. Then I began to see how dangerous Modi is to society as a whole. In short, he is modern, complex sophisticated version of Nazi ideology. He carefully raised an army of hindu rightwing members who are bigots, intolerant and full of hate. He doesn't belive in democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, tolerance, diversity, press freedom and stuffs like that. Anyway... Earlier I (and every other Modi opponent I know) would openly criticize him on various SM platofrms or whatsapp groups. Now we just stay silent. We now dont even talk anything against him even in familiar circles. Why? Because we are afraid. You may get beaten. You may be arrested. You may be shunned. I live in an apartment in Delhi and there is a whatsapp group for that apartment where we share and discuss apartment related issues. Some Modi supporters often post highly inflammble propagandist anti muslims post on regular basis. One guy politely objected to it. He was immediatly declared anti-hindu and anti India. He was removed from the group. He was 'politely' told that he should be careful in future. The friendly neighbors have turned foes. Even I was cornered and declared anti-national many times (luckily by people who were otherwise friendly to me.) This is happening all around in India. If you aren't Modi supporter, just keep your mouth shut.
- hef19898 4y ago
  That's right from the Nazi playbook, and extremely scary...
  - throwaway38471 4y ago
    And PM of India also does a regular monologue which is broadcasted across all govt news channels, radio stations, translated to multiple languages, sent through mobile app of govt/pm. They even spam you on your emails if you ever used your email to deal with govt services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Ki_Baat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Ki_Baat
    - mayankkaizen 4y ago
      And yet he is so coward that he always avoid interviews, except for may be 2-3 interviews (read PR stunts) which were conducted by sycophants like Rajat Sharma who has dedicated his life to Modi. Other than that, he never faced any open interview in his 8 years tenure as a PM of biggest democracy.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"
naruvimama 4y ago
The current Modi government is held to a much higher standard than the previous congress dynasty. Freedom of speech is much worse in non BJP states like Tamil Nadu. There is a huge cabal of bureaucracy, media, academia, judiciary and foreign institutions that profited handsomely under the corruption ecosystem built by the congress. They are infuriated by the people's choice of a more honest and a non-dynast like Modi.
- mayankkaizen 4y ago
  Until 2014, BJP was the only democratic party in India which wasn't run by a authoritarian person. Current BJP is now the most authoritarian party where Modi-Shah call the shots. Can you name even a single person who is critical of Modi and still is in BJP? Who opposed ANY decision of Modi government? If you think Gandhi dynasty was corrupt then why Modi wasn't able to put them in jail? Why didn't he press any charges against them? Again, if you believe Gandhis were corrupt then you should also believe Modi got innocents murdered. He committed genocide and there is no bigger crime than genocide. I opposed Congress when it was in power without any fear. Initially I opposed Modi too but not anymore. Why? Because I'm scared for my life. That is the difference between Congress and BJP.
  - muzaffarpur 4y ago
    Question is, if Modi is culprit, why he is not in jail. Congress was in power for atleast 5 years or so, post Godhara. That's how the country is. There is no rule of law and for sure there was never rule of law for politicians). If you have lived in India, you would know there is no difference in Modi or Congress or anyone else. Politicians are gangsters. Modi has done what congress did early. Congress consolidated Muslim votes at the expense of Hindu sentiments, and Modi has done exactly opposite. He has consolidated Hindu votes at the expanse of Muslim sentiments. They are all same. I wonder how was it possible (I mean where the courage stems from) that supposedly minority group can burn alive hundreds of pilgrims without thinking of consequences. How did kashmiri muslims assumed that there'll be no repercussions of kicking out Hindus from Jammu (oh they didn't leave due to minor inconvenience). The resentment wasn't build in a day(I believe Congress was ruling India in 1990). What did congress government do? Nothing. So to conclude, congress and BJP are equivalent.
FerociousTimes 4y ago
India ranks 142nd on the World Press Freedom Index for 2021 [1] out of 180 countries tracked by Reporters sans frontières (RSF), a very embarrassing ranking for the world's most populous or largest democracy. [1]: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking
stjohnswarts 4y ago
I was curious about this myself and wondering if Modi is on his way to being the next Putin/Xi and declaring himself dictator for life.

the instances of the Indian government censoring the internet are numerous and well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India

noarchy 4y ago

If we start to get a lot of comments here, pay attention. You'll likely see confirmation of recent trends in India. I suspect we're already seeing that, even with the few comments that have been posted so far.

danamit 4y ago
I thought it will be different from Twitter and YouTube comments, sad to see Indian IT professionals being part of that too.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  It's only less pronounced for American IT professionals defending the US reputation as y'all have more of a contrarían streak. I think if anything Americans online are more prone to criticize their own country than other places specifically because we have decent freedom of speech.
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    ... for now. The right wing SCOTUS is likely to begin upholding racist, sexist, and political decisions as okay in republicans states, they (the 5 far right members) have made no qualms about putting out feelers for such cases in the past, we are just beginning to see how bad it's going to get with challenges to Roe v. Wade (soon to be completely upended), voters rights, and various other cases in the pipeline
- shasts 4y ago
  Majority of Indians IT professionals or majority who has attended college in India are upper caste folks, the main supporters of current ruling party. So the trend is not surprising. Many of them migrated to West and continue to do the same caste things even in silicon valley. Google the Cisco caste discrimination incident.
  - muzaffarpur 4y ago
    I doubt it. On an average around 70% of seats are reserved (affirmative action) for lower caste students. The difference of admission cutoffs is like day and night. I wouldn't be surprise that people from upper caste don't feel particularly well, for being lawfully, indefinite discrimination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India
    - unmole 4y ago
      > On an average around 70% of seats are reserved (affirmative action) for lower caste students. In which alternate reality?
    - shasts 4y ago
      The Wikipedia link is correct, but you are only seeing one side. Getting into engineering schools requires coaching, which majority can't afford. Second, surviving there requires additional skills that state board educated Dalits and lower castes don't have. You can Google for the number of Dalits and lower castes really getting admitted or finishing the course. https://qz.com/india/2001747/iit-kharagpur-professor-abusing-sc-st-students-is-not-a-one-off/ https://qz.com/india/2001747/iit-kharagpur-professor-abusing...
morekozhambu 4y ago
[dead]

leephillips 4y ago

India never had freedom of speech. Opposition newspapers are often harassed and shut down. They have a law criminalizing offending religious feelings. This is not an exaggerated paraphrase, that’s what the law says. A scientist was convicted under this law a few years ago for demonstrating that a “weeping” statue of the Virgin Mary was not actually weeping blood. The truth was offensive, so the law applied. EDIT: I remembered inaccurately. It was a statue of the crucified Jesus, not Mary.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
imdhmd 4y ago
There is a difference between a law in paper and its enactment. There are various laws in the constitution of india that can be conveniently represented to prosecute someone on the basis of their speech. There is significant evidence of such happenings only increasing lately
stickfigure 4y ago
Your point still stands, but there was never a formal prosecution or conviction (he fled to Finland before it got that far): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
- leephillips 4y ago
  Thanks for the clarification (I was going by memory). So he was arrested, and presumably would have been prosecuted had he not escaped.
bruceb 4y ago
He was gone after not because of proving it false, but because he accused the church of purposefully lying I believe. One could call it not much different but it isn't the exact same as being prosecuted for debunking a "miracle" From wikipedia: he skeptic-rationalist author Sanal Edamaruku proved that the water stemmed from a faulty sewage system, which seeped due to capillary action. However, Edamaruku also accused Latin Christian priests of regularly scamming devotees and defrauding miracles to make money, and build bigger and newer churchs or convents,[1] and mocked the Pope as "anti-science".[2] A church representative admitted Edamaruku had the "right to doubt", and Christian activists said that the backlash was not for debunking the alleged "miracle" but for the defamatory statements made live on television.[3]

danamit 4y ago

I remember stories of people beaten up for not standing for the anthem in the cinema, one of them was disabled wheelchair user. So I guess it is like that for a while especially after the Hindutvas got into power.

zapdrive 4y ago
Oh yeah, freedom of speech flourished under Congress rule /s Who was the only prime minister to invoke emergency?
- webartisan 4y ago
  [flagged]
- MrBlueIncognito 4y ago
  The Nazis killed millions through their actions. Will that justify you killing even one?
  - mayankkaizen 4y ago
    RSS is the ideological parent of currently ruling political party (BJP). The second head and most powerful figure in RSS history was Golwalkar and he openly praised Hitler for 'fighting for his culture'. https://thewire.in/politics/culture-ministry-ms-golwalkar-hitler-caste-muslim-rss https://thewire.in/politics/culture-ministry-ms-golwalkar-hi...
- mayankkaizen 4y ago
  Indira wasn't a saint but Modi is evil personified. Emergency was invoked and was soon revoked. If you are careful, you can see India is now again under Emergency since 2015. And things are getting worse. The difference between 1975 and 2015 is that earlier it was declared openly but in present case it wasn't declared, rather it was systemically implemented by developing a hate mongering Hindutva brigade. Press freedom was gone for may be one year during 1975. But now? It is gone for good 5 years. In 1975, no particular community was targeted. Now? Every muslim is at risk. Heck, even Hindus who are anti-Modi are at risks. During 1975, journalists were able to protest against Indira Gandhi. And now? You'd be put in jail for whatever reason. No journlist can dare to oppose Modi. India is in worse condition now than it was in 1975.

srvmshr 4y ago

Freedom & freedom of speech aren't equivalent ideas, and most of us Indians do not correctly identify the subtle difference. Hence speech and opinions come under vicious attack instead of productive participation. India sees journalism taking camps (since the era of Mrs. Indira Gandhi' premiership). There are national newspapers & media channels who very overtly align with the political parties. Speaking your mind out comes with its own consequences.

koshergweilo 4y ago
Sure even the freest of speech is not free of consequences, but this seems to be a case of the state punishing a specific person for his speech. Partisan media is one thing but this seems to be something entirely different

actuator 4y ago

No, it hasn't been a backslide, it has been always like this. While media in the west will pick certain stories, you can find such events all across the political spectrum. A much lauded and young people supported newcomer party used the police against the members of the party in power at the national level as soon as they came to power in a state and got hold of the police there. It is sad but when courts won't act in time, this abuse of law will keep happening.

pessimizer 4y ago

Absolute freedom of speech is a US Bill of Rights thing, and we backslide when it comes to political or sexual speech, e.g. with political Islam in the 21st century; Communism/Socialism/Anarchism in the early 20th century; and constantly when it comes to anything sexual, especially information about birth control, anything gay, anything involving miscegenation, or anything else that embarrasses a judge or gives him an erection. The difference between the US and other places is that these things are usually reverted after a few decades by appeal to a clearly written first amendment. The most dangerous assault on US freedom of speech has been copyright, which has become an pretense to monitor all communications since sending information about birth control or sending porn through the mail ceased to be a public priority. Vaguely defined "hate speech" is creeping up on becoming a reason for government censorship through the backdoor of "hate crime." "Hate crimes" are proved by proving a regular old crime was committed, then poring through the history of the person who committed the crime looking for "hate speech." "Hate speech" could certainly eventually expand to be indistinguishable from lèse majesté. A certain type of mind can see criticism of the President as a "hate crime."

mayankkaizen 4y ago

Let me tell you my anecdotal experience. Modi came in power in 2014 and till than I was BJP (Modi's party) supporter. Then I began to see how dangerous Modi is to society as a whole. In short, he is modern, complex sophisticated version of Nazi ideology. He carefully raised an army of hindu rightwing members who are bigots, intolerant and full of hate. He doesn't belive in democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, tolerance, diversity, press freedom and stuffs like that. Anyway... Earlier I (and every other Modi opponent I know) would openly criticize him on various SM platofrms or whatsapp groups. Now we just stay silent. We now dont even talk anything against him even in familiar circles. Why? Because we are afraid. You may get beaten. You may be arrested. You may be shunned. I live in an apartment in Delhi and there is a whatsapp group for that apartment where we share and discuss apartment related issues. Some Modi supporters often post highly inflammble propagandist anti muslims post on regular basis. One guy politely objected to it. He was immediatly declared anti-hindu and anti India. He was removed from the group. He was 'politely' told that he should be careful in future. The friendly neighbors have turned foes. Even I was cornered and declared anti-national many times (luckily by people who were otherwise friendly to me.) This is happening all around in India. If you aren't Modi supporter, just keep your mouth shut.

hef19898 4y ago
That's right from the Nazi playbook, and extremely scary...
- throwaway38471 4y ago
  And PM of India also does a regular monologue which is broadcasted across all govt news channels, radio stations, translated to multiple languages, sent through mobile app of govt/pm. They even spam you on your emails if you ever used your email to deal with govt services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Ki_Baat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Ki_Baat
  - mayankkaizen 4y ago
    And yet he is so coward that he always avoid interviews, except for may be 2-3 interviews (read PR stunts) which were conducted by sycophants like Rajat Sharma who has dedicated his life to Modi. Other than that, he never faced any open interview in his 8 years tenure as a PM of biggest democracy.

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"

naruvimama 4y ago

The current Modi government is held to a much higher standard than the previous congress dynasty. Freedom of speech is much worse in non BJP states like Tamil Nadu. There is a huge cabal of bureaucracy, media, academia, judiciary and foreign institutions that profited handsomely under the corruption ecosystem built by the congress. They are infuriated by the people's choice of a more honest and a non-dynast like Modi.

mayankkaizen 4y ago
Until 2014, BJP was the only democratic party in India which wasn't run by a authoritarian person. Current BJP is now the most authoritarian party where Modi-Shah call the shots. Can you name even a single person who is critical of Modi and still is in BJP? Who opposed ANY decision of Modi government? If you think Gandhi dynasty was corrupt then why Modi wasn't able to put them in jail? Why didn't he press any charges against them? Again, if you believe Gandhis were corrupt then you should also believe Modi got innocents murdered. He committed genocide and there is no bigger crime than genocide. I opposed Congress when it was in power without any fear. Initially I opposed Modi too but not anymore. Why? Because I'm scared for my life. That is the difference between Congress and BJP.
- muzaffarpur 4y ago
  Question is, if Modi is culprit, why he is not in jail. Congress was in power for atleast 5 years or so, post Godhara. That's how the country is. There is no rule of law and for sure there was never rule of law for politicians). If you have lived in India, you would know there is no difference in Modi or Congress or anyone else. Politicians are gangsters. Modi has done what congress did early. Congress consolidated Muslim votes at the expense of Hindu sentiments, and Modi has done exactly opposite. He has consolidated Hindu votes at the expanse of Muslim sentiments. They are all same. I wonder how was it possible (I mean where the courage stems from) that supposedly minority group can burn alive hundreds of pilgrims without thinking of consequences. How did kashmiri muslims assumed that there'll be no repercussions of kicking out Hindus from Jammu (oh they didn't leave due to minor inconvenience). The resentment wasn't build in a day(I believe Congress was ruling India in 1990). What did congress government do? Nothing. So to conclude, congress and BJP are equivalent.

FerociousTimes 4y ago

India ranks 142nd on the World Press Freedom Index for 2021 [1] out of 180 countries tracked by Reporters sans frontières (RSF), a very embarrassing ranking for the world's most populous or largest democracy. [1]: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking

stjohnswarts 4y ago

I was curious about this myself and wondering if Modi is on his way to being the next Putin/Xi and declaring himself dictator for life.