4 ms·

It's the natural outcome of far leftist ideologies. People need to wake up and start rejecting this destructive ideology where a person is evaluated only based

by azth 4y ago

It's the natural outcome of far leftist ideologies. People need to wake up and start rejecting this destructive ideology where a person is evaluated only based on their identity. I think MLK had something to say about that.

LordDragonfang 4y ago
MLK was a leftist - and arguably a "far leftist" for his time. If you're going to use him as an example, you may have to concede that this is not a "natural outcome" of leftist ideologies in general, but rather the outcome of some other selection pressure that rewards diversion from initiatives that actually affect peoples' material conditions.
- azth 4y ago
  I'm referring to modern far leftism, an offshoot from Marxism and post modernism.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    As a first comment here, I'd point out that defining women independently from solely their role as mothers is judging them on character rather than identity, so you should support such a thing if that's your rallying cry. But also, on MLK and postmodernism: postmodernism dates back to the 1940s, To Kill a Mockingbird is postmodern. MLK's Letter From a Birmingham Jail is very clearly postmodern (e.g. when he says "But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.", he's alluding to a failure to consider the viewpoint of the oppressed in the situation). That letter is also very modern-leftist. Kimberle Crenshaw coined the term "intersectionality" in 1989 and elaborated on it in 1991, saying "When feminism does not explicitly oppose racism, and when anti-racism does not incorporate oppposition to patriarchy race and gender politics often end up being antagonistic to each other, and both interests lose". The letter from a Birmingham jail includes another famous line from MLK: " Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly". To me, those express similar sentiments: that oppression exists in many forms in many places, and it is unwise to pretend that oppression that fails to inconvenience me is therefore unworthy of my attention. And of course he says later on "there is a type of constructive nonviolent tension that is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must see the need of having nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men to rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. " which to me describes the people often criticized as "modern far leftists", those people who create the tension and discomfort in society are, in MLK's view, doing us, collectively, a great service. I'd recommend you read the whole letter[0]. If you're so willing to lionize MLK, but disagree with so much of what he preached, I implore you to consider why exactly that is. [0]: https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-...
    - azth 4y ago
      I only used MLK because he's a Western figure that stood up to racism. For us as Muslims, Islam set the guidelines on these issues a long long time ago. All people are equal under God, skin color does not matter. The only thing that matters at the end when we stand in front of Him is who comes with the most piety and good deeds, as those will determine where you end up.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        This doesn't conflict with CRT or modern leftism though. If God's accounting of our deeds is perfect (or if God doesn't exist) should have no impact on our actions. It would be sinful to let injustice persist solely because God will even things out in the end. God doesn't give us an excuse to abdicate our responsibility.
        azth 4y ago
        This doesn't contradict what I wrote. Islam explicitly rejects racism, and makes it sinful. Because we're equal in front of God, this means that anyone treating someone else differently because of their skin color, race, etc. is going to be accountable in front of God for this sin. It seems you're engaging in a straw man fallacy saying that we don't need to do anything because we're all eventually accountable in front of God. Islam never said that. Several texts and accounts explicitly call out racism as a sin. CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. It is not the beacon of equality that its supporters claim it is.
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        > Islam never said that. I agree, I never claimed Islam said that. I claim you said that, which misrepresents Islam! > CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. What about CRT does this? The core idea of CRT (as you use it) is, I think the recognition that inequality exists, that some people mistreat others and that we should recognize that when it happens. What about that is racist?
UncleMeat 4y ago
MLK explicitly supported affirmative action and other programs designed explicitly to benefit black people in order to make up for past discrimination. I suspect he would be tired of being used as a justification for absolute colorblindness.
- Tr3nton 4y ago
  So Affirmative Action is revenge discrimination?
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    No. MLK considered it to be a step on the path to equality.
- troupe 4y ago
  What he stood for changed over time, but at one point he said he hoped the decisions people made about his children would be made based on his children's character and not the color of their skin.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Yes he did say that one line in one speech. But if you review the totality of his writing, it is very clear that total colorblindness in the face of inequality was not his goal. The "I Have A Dream" does not represent some shift away from an earlier opinion. It simply doesn't represent the opinion that a lot of reactionaries think it does.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  There's a long-running joke about MLK giving exactly one speech and never saying anything else.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Not even just one speech. Literally just one line!
bee_rider 4y ago
I don't think it is. It is more of a natural outcome of silly corporatists not really understanding why leftists and progressives object to things, and so just reflexively avoiding anything that could be, however tenuously, linked to gender. They are concern trolling themselves.
- redisman 4y ago
  It’s bubbling up from cloistered academia. Not corporations. Corporations do the bare minimum to get the annoying people to shut up

by azth 4y ago

LordDragonfang 4y ago

MLK was a leftist - and arguably a "far leftist" for his time. If you're going to use him as an example, you may have to concede that this is not a "natural outcome" of leftist ideologies in general, but rather the outcome of some other selection pressure that rewards diversion from initiatives that actually affect peoples' material conditions.

azth 4y ago
I'm referring to modern far leftism, an offshoot from Marxism and post modernism.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  As a first comment here, I'd point out that defining women independently from solely their role as mothers is judging them on character rather than identity, so you should support such a thing if that's your rallying cry. But also, on MLK and postmodernism: postmodernism dates back to the 1940s, To Kill a Mockingbird is postmodern. MLK's Letter From a Birmingham Jail is very clearly postmodern (e.g. when he says "But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.", he's alluding to a failure to consider the viewpoint of the oppressed in the situation). That letter is also very modern-leftist. Kimberle Crenshaw coined the term "intersectionality" in 1989 and elaborated on it in 1991, saying "When feminism does not explicitly oppose racism, and when anti-racism does not incorporate oppposition to patriarchy race and gender politics often end up being antagonistic to each other, and both interests lose". The letter from a Birmingham jail includes another famous line from MLK: " Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly". To me, those express similar sentiments: that oppression exists in many forms in many places, and it is unwise to pretend that oppression that fails to inconvenience me is therefore unworthy of my attention. And of course he says later on "there is a type of constructive nonviolent tension that is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must see the need of having nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men to rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. " which to me describes the people often criticized as "modern far leftists", those people who create the tension and discomfort in society are, in MLK's view, doing us, collectively, a great service. I'd recommend you read the whole letter[0]. If you're so willing to lionize MLK, but disagree with so much of what he preached, I implore you to consider why exactly that is. [0]: https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-...
  - azth 4y ago
    I only used MLK because he's a Western figure that stood up to racism. For us as Muslims, Islam set the guidelines on these issues a long long time ago. All people are equal under God, skin color does not matter. The only thing that matters at the end when we stand in front of Him is who comes with the most piety and good deeds, as those will determine where you end up.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      This doesn't conflict with CRT or modern leftism though. If God's accounting of our deeds is perfect (or if God doesn't exist) should have no impact on our actions. It would be sinful to let injustice persist solely because God will even things out in the end. God doesn't give us an excuse to abdicate our responsibility.
      - azth 4y ago
        This doesn't contradict what I wrote. Islam explicitly rejects racism, and makes it sinful. Because we're equal in front of God, this means that anyone treating someone else differently because of their skin color, race, etc. is going to be accountable in front of God for this sin. It seems you're engaging in a straw man fallacy saying that we don't need to do anything because we're all eventually accountable in front of God. Islam never said that. Several texts and accounts explicitly call out racism as a sin. CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. It is not the beacon of equality that its supporters claim it is.
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        > Islam never said that. I agree, I never claimed Islam said that. I claim you said that, which misrepresents Islam! > CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. What about CRT does this? The core idea of CRT (as you use it) is, I think the recognition that inequality exists, that some people mistreat others and that we should recognize that when it happens. What about that is racist?

UncleMeat 4y ago

MLK explicitly supported affirmative action and other programs designed explicitly to benefit black people in order to make up for past discrimination. I suspect he would be tired of being used as a justification for absolute colorblindness.

Tr3nton 4y ago
So Affirmative Action is revenge discrimination?
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  No. MLK considered it to be a step on the path to equality.
troupe 4y ago
What he stood for changed over time, but at one point he said he hoped the decisions people made about his children would be made based on his children's character and not the color of their skin.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Yes he did say that one line in one speech. But if you review the totality of his writing, it is very clear that total colorblindness in the face of inequality was not his goal. The "I Have A Dream" does not represent some shift away from an earlier opinion. It simply doesn't represent the opinion that a lot of reactionaries think it does.
saalweachter 4y ago
There's a long-running joke about MLK giving exactly one speech and never saying anything else.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Not even just one speech. Literally just one line!

bee_rider 4y ago

I don't think it is. It is more of a natural outcome of silly corporatists not really understanding why leftists and progressives object to things, and so just reflexively avoiding anything that could be, however tenuously, linked to gender. They are concern trolling themselves.

redisman 4y ago
It’s bubbling up from cloistered academia. Not corporations. Corporations do the bare minimum to get the annoying people to shut up