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I was expecting a catch. Perhaps a play on words or something. Nope. Just an actual Tesla colliding with an actual jet. What’s surprising to me is that it kee

by tailspin2019 5y ago

I was expecting a catch. Perhaps a play on words or something. Nope. Just an actual Tesla colliding with an actual jet. What’s surprising to me is that it keeps moving post collision… seems odd that it can meet with unexpected resistance and not trigger some sort of emergency measure. (eg. stopping) I used to be bullish about Tesla’s “only cameras” approach, and I still think they’ll crack FSD in some form, but I am increasingly wondering if there needs to be additional sensors for an abundance of extra safety around collision avoidance.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>seems odd that it can meet with unexpected resistance and not trigger some sort of emergency measure. (eg. stopping) This is a requirement unless you want it getting stuck on minor bumps and whatnot.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  But… minor bumps != airplane…
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Does an airplane provide substantially more resistance than trying to roll through a decent sized pothole without the benefit of much momentum? That airplane is small enough it probably gets dragged around by hand when it's not chocked. The chocks small airports tend to use are pretty small to fit under the wheel fairings many small planes have. I can see it pushing the aircraft around by the tail.
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      Fair enough. So judging by resistance alone may not be enough…. Needs additional forward facing sensors then? (For both long and short distance object detection?) Earlier on in Autopilot/FSD beta testing it was easier to overlook edge cases like this but I think we’re several years into this now and I’m starting to feel that at this stage it should be almost impossible for these cars to be driving into stationary objects. I’m a proponent of what Tesla are doing but they need to solve this ASAP now, whether by hardware or software, before it erodes too much more confidence (especially as it’s all too easy for people to extrapolate from these documented edge cases and believe these vehicles to be less safe than they actually are).
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      > That airplane is small enough it probably gets dragged around by hand when it's not chocked. Vision Jet weighs 6,000 lb at MTOW. So, unlikely.
      - bombcar 5y ago
        6,000 pounds rolling weight is nothing much, it probably does get moved by hand using a tow bar. I've moved similar planes myself.
- dylan-m 5y ago
  As this is unfinished software which should have extremely high safety requirements: I would very much like for it to be stuck on minor bumps and whatnot. In fact, I would like it to stop moving the car, sound a very loud alarm, and immediately notify the operator on multiple channels if anything even remotely out of the ordinary happens. Tesla should devote as many resources to detecting abnormal conditions as they are on making the car drive in the first place. The owners here are alpha testing a complex and dangerous system and they should expect nothing less.
  - eatonphil 5y ago
    While I do agree with your skepticism, how would stopping immediately work on the highway? There are often bumps and ground shifts on the highway. Don't want to stop automatically then.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      This is smart summon, a feature you should rather not use on a highway.
      - eatonphil 5y ago
        Ah, yeah. That makes sense.
  - routerl 5y ago
    > The owners here are alpha testing a complex and dangerous system and they should expect nothing less. This is the part of Tesla's business that upsets me. Their marketing department is being allowed to do what marketing departments do, rather than biting the bullet and letting it be known that this is a complex, dangerous, young, and known to fail system. There are simple decisions here that should be made but weren't, e.g. "keep the product code-name until it is out of beta"; nothing on a current model Tesla deserves being called "self-driving" in any way.
- kj4ips 5y ago
  My understanding is that a human is //supposed// to be observing the vehicle the entire time that smart summon is in use, hence why the end-user has to hold down a button on the app the entire time the vehicle is in motion. My understanding is that smart summon operates on a completely different set of rules than navigate on city streets, even though they might share some common functionality, like object detection and mapping.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    Ahh, see that's the give and take of Tesla - marketing vs legal. The marketing text for Summon literally says "Your car comes to you while you deal with a fussy child". Disclaimer: do not use while distracted (like by a fussy child, for example) and always pay attention.
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    As a baseline it's supposed to avoid running into objects. It doesn't seem to be able to do this relatively simple task very well even at 5mph, which is why you need to watch it like a hawk. Basically nobody sane ever uses it at all after they've tested it a few times.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      It runs into the tail of the plane, which is sticking out over the place it wants to travel, and pretty high up (it appears to collide with the top of the windshield). It's understandable why it may not be designed to check that situation, as it is not one you'd normally find in a parking lot (unless maybe a parking lot full of semi trailers).
      - williamscales 5y ago
        I guess they assume they don’t have to check for high objects because if it’s in a height restricted parking garage when smart summon is activated, then by definition it must have fit past any restrictions originally on the way in.
      - 5y ago
- afiori 5y ago
  There should be some sensor to distinguish hits on the chassis or on the wheels, at the very least it should create distinct noises on an accellerometer.
  - geoelectric 5y ago
    Should be able to tell from the suspension. If front extends before back, rocking the chassis backwards at all, then you hit something above the axle line.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
This seems exactly the same kind of error as the Florida Tesla that underran a crossing semi trailer and killed the driver. Teslas seem bad at detecting obstacles that are at about windshield height but don't touch the ground. Possibly because they don't train the system with such obstacles. Or not enough, anyway.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>seems odd that it can meet with unexpected resistance and not trigger some sort of emergency measure. (eg. stopping) This is a requirement unless you want it getting stuck on minor bumps and whatnot.

tailspin2019 5y ago
But… minor bumps != airplane…
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Does an airplane provide substantially more resistance than trying to roll through a decent sized pothole without the benefit of much momentum? That airplane is small enough it probably gets dragged around by hand when it's not chocked. The chocks small airports tend to use are pretty small to fit under the wheel fairings many small planes have. I can see it pushing the aircraft around by the tail.
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    Fair enough. So judging by resistance alone may not be enough…. Needs additional forward facing sensors then? (For both long and short distance object detection?) Earlier on in Autopilot/FSD beta testing it was easier to overlook edge cases like this but I think we’re several years into this now and I’m starting to feel that at this stage it should be almost impossible for these cars to be driving into stationary objects. I’m a proponent of what Tesla are doing but they need to solve this ASAP now, whether by hardware or software, before it erodes too much more confidence (especially as it’s all too easy for people to extrapolate from these documented edge cases and believe these vehicles to be less safe than they actually are).
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > That airplane is small enough it probably gets dragged around by hand when it's not chocked. Vision Jet weighs 6,000 lb at MTOW. So, unlikely.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      6,000 pounds rolling weight is nothing much, it probably does get moved by hand using a tow bar. I've moved similar planes myself.
dylan-m 5y ago
As this is unfinished software which should have extremely high safety requirements: I would very much like for it to be stuck on minor bumps and whatnot. In fact, I would like it to stop moving the car, sound a very loud alarm, and immediately notify the operator on multiple channels if anything even remotely out of the ordinary happens. Tesla should devote as many resources to detecting abnormal conditions as they are on making the car drive in the first place. The owners here are alpha testing a complex and dangerous system and they should expect nothing less.
- eatonphil 5y ago
  While I do agree with your skepticism, how would stopping immediately work on the highway? There are often bumps and ground shifts on the highway. Don't want to stop automatically then.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    This is smart summon, a feature you should rather not use on a highway.
    - eatonphil 5y ago
      Ah, yeah. That makes sense.
- routerl 5y ago
  > The owners here are alpha testing a complex and dangerous system and they should expect nothing less. This is the part of Tesla's business that upsets me. Their marketing department is being allowed to do what marketing departments do, rather than biting the bullet and letting it be known that this is a complex, dangerous, young, and known to fail system. There are simple decisions here that should be made but weren't, e.g. "keep the product code-name until it is out of beta"; nothing on a current model Tesla deserves being called "self-driving" in any way.
kj4ips 5y ago
My understanding is that a human is //supposed// to be observing the vehicle the entire time that smart summon is in use, hence why the end-user has to hold down a button on the app the entire time the vehicle is in motion. My understanding is that smart summon operates on a completely different set of rules than navigate on city streets, even though they might share some common functionality, like object detection and mapping.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  Ahh, see that's the give and take of Tesla - marketing vs legal. The marketing text for Summon literally says "Your car comes to you while you deal with a fussy child". Disclaimer: do not use while distracted (like by a fussy child, for example) and always pay attention.
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  As a baseline it's supposed to avoid running into objects. It doesn't seem to be able to do this relatively simple task very well even at 5mph, which is why you need to watch it like a hawk. Basically nobody sane ever uses it at all after they've tested it a few times.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    It runs into the tail of the plane, which is sticking out over the place it wants to travel, and pretty high up (it appears to collide with the top of the windshield). It's understandable why it may not be designed to check that situation, as it is not one you'd normally find in a parking lot (unless maybe a parking lot full of semi trailers).
    - williamscales 5y ago
      I guess they assume they don’t have to check for high objects because if it’s in a height restricted parking garage when smart summon is activated, then by definition it must have fit past any restrictions originally on the way in.
    - 5y ago
afiori 5y ago
There should be some sensor to distinguish hits on the chassis or on the wheels, at the very least it should create distinct noises on an accellerometer.
- geoelectric 5y ago
  Should be able to tell from the suspension. If front extends before back, rocking the chassis backwards at all, then you hit something above the axle line.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

This seems exactly the same kind of error as the Florida Tesla that underran a crossing semi trailer and killed the driver. Teslas seem bad at detecting obstacles that are at about windshield height but don't touch the ground. Possibly because they don't train the system with such obstacles. Or not enough, anyway.