8 ms·

The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyra

by gh02t 4y ago

The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyramid scheme where new customers finance the ongoing costs of existing users or b) a subscription model that gives them a strong incentive to keep customers as locked into their ecosystem as possible. Either of these leave customers high and dry when the house of cards finally collapses, and since the products are cloud based (especially in case B where a lot of companies force you into cloud only access) your devices become bricks. I'm not sure Matter is going to solve this because it doesn't do away with this business model. Zigbee and Zwave have been great options for ages that offer a lot of the same benefits with respect to local control and portability (as does Homekit to an extent), but people continue to buy into closed ecosystems like Insteon and then get burned. Of course companies like Wink and SmartThings have managed to build cloud lock in on top of Zigbee and Zwave, I can see Matter helping with that part of the issue if we can get interoperability at the controller level.

brimble 4y ago
I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they physically break.
- greedo 4y ago
  I've found the Lutron Caseta line perfect so far. I won't buy anything that requires external servers etc (like Nest). But Lutron only makes a limited range of devices.
  - eldaisfish 4y ago
    Seconded. Lutron's devices connected via apple's homekit work well for us. No problems so far, the setup is pretty much set-and-forget and apple handles the security. You can disable access to the internet for lutron's bridge so no data leaves our home network. Pretty good solution.
  - tristanperry 4y ago
    Agreed, Caseta are worth their price premium IMO. The only downside is that they aren't available in the UK, but that's not uncommon for non-mainstream smart home products.
    - toast0 4y ago
      I'm sure you could find someone to reship product to you... And then you'd just need a stepdown transformer in your wall, and to import US spec everything else to go with it. Totally simple ;)
  - sbradford26 4y ago
    I think the best part about Lutron Caseta is that it still solves my problems without the internet connected hub. The internet connection only adds additional features, and nothing else breaks if that goes down. Ex. I used a lutron caseta smart switch with and a pico remote to add three way switching for my kitchen and dining room. Where they used to only have one inconveniently located switch.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  > I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. My mil has purchased some seriously sketchy outlets off Amazon to install because she wanted to modern style but didn't want to pay the Leviton/Legrand premium from the home center duopoly. If you're purchasing in-wall electrical, I strongly encourage you to buy a name brand from a reputable source. Also spend the extra half dollar for nylon plates that won't crack or shatter.
  - brimble 4y ago
    Hahaha, I guess I've avoided that because I rarely purchase anything that involves electricity from Amazon. I don't trust them not to burn down my house.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc? I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire system onto a separate network with no internet access and forget all the security updates). Yes, it took some skill to install and configure, but that's no different from installing all the electrics (or plumbing or heating) in the first place. A "dumb" home needs maintenance as well. Maybe people just have an unrealistic expectation from smart devices?
  - jeremyjh 4y ago
    It isn’t bad for people who like to do that but the scarcity of those people and their preferences for open solutions means it’s tough to make a lot of money there.
  - brimble 4y ago
    There's a big difference between wiring up a new outlet that'll likely last for decades without further effort and will very likely require an identical or near-identical process to replace even 30 years from now, and care and feeding of fully-local "smart home" networks & interfaces. Most plumbing or electrical work I do will last decades. If I move, the same skills will transfer perfectly to the plumbing and wiring already installed in the new house. The last big innovation in any of that was PEX piping, which takes about five minutes to get completely competent with, and has been around for years already. People who can come out and fix any of that, if I don't feel like dealing with it, can be found anywhere and often work pretty damn cheap (unless you're getting ripped off). Almost all the maintenance is "buy part, replace part", which is fine because (in the scheme of things) most of the parts are very cheap. Add "smart" devices to any of that, and they're instantly the most finicky and needy part of the whole system.
    - jvolkman 4y ago
      But any decent smart switch works as a normal switch by default, without any care or feeding. Sure, controlling them remotely and adding them to automation takes additional work, but that's stuff that is just impossible with the dumb switches, and not a requirement to control the light fixtures.
- markvdb 4y ago
  For a new build or serious renovation with complete rewiring, this is mostly a solved problem. The Shelly pro 4pm installs in the electric wiring cabinet. It speaks MQTT standard messaging across wired ethernet, but it can also integrate with Shelly's cloud thingies. It's a smart, standards based drop in replacement for ordinary "dumb" AC teleruptor/impulse relay star topology wiring.
bfung 4y ago
100% agree > I'm not sure Matter is going to solve this because it doesn't do away with this business model. Zigbee and Zwave Matter, Zigbee, Zwave… https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
gregmac 4y ago
> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. I agree. It's a shame because Insteon products were pretty good for their time, for the most part. Granted, I never used their cloud stuff at all -- only local control (via ISY99 and later also Home Assistant). Though I'd say this was a long time coming; it had been nearly a decade since any new products came out. Early on, their power-line-only stuff was sketchy and had issues, but my later experience with the dual-band stuff was great. I had many devices in my last house (sold with the house). I bought all new zwave stuff for this house, because of the lack of anything new and I figured Insteon was a dying brand. Glad I did that. My biggest frustration is there's still no equivalent for the Insteon KeypadLinc. There's products that come close, and even have some additional features (that Insteon probably could have added via firmware), but nothing that stands out as overall better. The other thing that is still unmatched is the local linking. Zwave kind of has this ability with groups, but it's so much more complicated to setup and still less powerful (eg: I don't think you can set on-level or ramp-rate). It would be interesting to have more insight from Insteon as to what went wrong. Why did they stop innovating? I almost wonder if they bet big on cloud then sales didn't match their expectations. I'd be interesting to know what sales of Universal Devices ISY99 (and other similar 3rd party control products) were vs their own cloud-based controls -- I get the impression there were probably as many, if not more, ISY99 users than Insteon Cloud users.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > no equivalent for Insteon KeypadLinc there are a variety of HomeKit buttons that are sold as e.g. dimmers or multi-bulb, but in fact can trigger arbitrary homekit devices, scenes, automations, etc. i’m guessing these fall in the category you say “comes close”? an example of what i mean is “Philips Hue v2 Smart Dimmer Switch and Remote” which is actually 4 arbitrary device, scene, or automation buttons that magneticallly stays on wall or comes off to be a remote. there are also a few beautiful button sets made with wood, fabric, etc., launched on kickstarter. by working with homekit, you can be sure they will not require their proprietary cloud to stay functional. that said, i’m a fan of ipad touch wallmount, like this in white: https://www.amazon.com/VidaMount-Wall-iPod-5th-Mount/dp/B01N3QFQG5/ https://www.amazon.com/VidaMount-Wall-iPod-5th-Mount/dp/B01N... with this you get arbitrary button sets for arbitrary systems, and price is competitive with locked-in options — remember the very early days “Philips ProntoPro” universal remote with arbitrarily programmable LCD screens that could emulate any physical button layout? or if you want something that does that for limited scenes, plus AV remote any house guest can pick up and use without instruction, there’s the interesting LogiTech Harmony Hub with the “Companion All-in-One” remote that doesn’t have a screen but does have buttons for scenes, super useful if you’re in the Alexa or Hue systems. i use the on-remote buttons for the lights of the room the remote lives in.
colechristensen 4y ago
A couple of us are working on exactly this, just a side project for now. Essentially pairing open (as in protocol, data control) standards based cloud control and data collection with open hardware that could be repurposed or used elsewhere. If there are any features that would really make this enticing let me know here or in an email.
car_analogy 4y ago
> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. There is a bigger reason - what problem do they solve? How much money and/or time will using their products save me? The one area where there might be worthwhile savings is smart thermostats, but could 90% of those savings be accomplished with an offline thermostat with a timer?
- mynameisash 4y ago
  I played with HomeAssistant for a while, and I kind of liked tinkering around with things, but it was still a huge pain in the ass, and I have no delusions that it was saving me money or time. For someone going into this with the expectation of tinkering, it's fine. For a commercial venture, I don't see current 'smart home' products/services as very viable. I've already switched my light bulbs to LEDs; how much am I actually going to save by having them turn off automatically after a preset delay? Not much. One of my DIY projects was a couple smart plugs and a temperature sensor; at the peak of summer heat, when the house was hot but it cooled off at night, I automated ventilating our house. It had a great impact on our comfort without using air conditioning (which we didn't have). That is a decent use for this kind of stuff, but it's far too much effort for most people to go through.
  - ungamedplayer 4y ago
    I have learned that almost any effort is far too much for people to go through.
- gh02t 4y ago
  There are plenty of useful/interesting things, e.g. reactive lights, more proactive climate control, controlling ventilation on demand, presence based interactions etc. Some of this can be achieved with dumb solutions, e.g. humidity controlled switch etc. But when you start integrating devices together they can coordinate to do much more complicated and "smart" things. Does everybody want to do that? No. How far do modern systems go towards achieving any of that? Ehh, IMO not very far unless you put a lot of effort into it. Do the UIs of modern systems really make setting up these sorts of complex interactions up accessible for the average person? Nope. Are there glaring privacy and security concerns? Yep. There are lots of perfectly valid criticisms, especially of "smart" homes as they are, but there are certainly lots of possibilities.
blahblarblar 4y ago
Central anything + smart home = miserable experience. If my router is having a sketchy connection I should never be blocked from turning my lights on, or have one random light in a scene fail to turn on. Someone needs to take the plunge and make the smart home a resilient mesh network that will work even in a zombie apocalypse.
- bitcuration 4y ago
  Yet as long as mobile is THE channel consumer live with, there is no other real option but go with cloud. Last example is use your phone to unlock Tesla's car door, remember? lol
bitcuration 4y ago
Cloud is inevitable when everybody wants to use mobile phone to control their home. Reminds me the Tesla car unlock from mobile phone incident. However, cloud is not the problem, the control and lock in of the cloud is. The future will lie in personal cloud for everything. This again is the resurrection of centralization vs. decentralization of everything on internet, the original promise of internet.
lupinglade 4y ago
Insteon isn't closed - it had an open and documented protocol and was supported by various software. It did not require "the cloud" either. The problem with Insteon is it was low quality hardware, not a very reliable protocol and there was a lack of good software.

by gh02t 4y ago

brimble 4y ago

I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they physically break.

greedo 4y ago
I've found the Lutron Caseta line perfect so far. I won't buy anything that requires external servers etc (like Nest). But Lutron only makes a limited range of devices.
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  Seconded. Lutron's devices connected via apple's homekit work well for us. No problems so far, the setup is pretty much set-and-forget and apple handles the security. You can disable access to the internet for lutron's bridge so no data leaves our home network. Pretty good solution.
- tristanperry 4y ago
  Agreed, Caseta are worth their price premium IMO. The only downside is that they aren't available in the UK, but that's not uncommon for non-mainstream smart home products.
  - toast0 4y ago
    I'm sure you could find someone to reship product to you... And then you'd just need a stepdown transformer in your wall, and to import US spec everything else to go with it. Totally simple ;)
- sbradford26 4y ago
  I think the best part about Lutron Caseta is that it still solves my problems without the internet connected hub. The internet connection only adds additional features, and nothing else breaks if that goes down. Ex. I used a lutron caseta smart switch with and a pico remote to add three way switching for my kitchen and dining room. Where they used to only have one inconveniently located switch.
cptskippy 4y ago
> I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. My mil has purchased some seriously sketchy outlets off Amazon to install because she wanted to modern style but didn't want to pay the Leviton/Legrand premium from the home center duopoly. If you're purchasing in-wall electrical, I strongly encourage you to buy a name brand from a reputable source. Also spend the extra half dollar for nylon plates that won't crack or shatter.
- brimble 4y ago
  Hahaha, I guess I've avoided that because I rarely purchase anything that involves electricity from Amazon. I don't trust them not to burn down my house.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc? I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire system onto a separate network with no internet access and forget all the security updates). Yes, it took some skill to install and configure, but that's no different from installing all the electrics (or plumbing or heating) in the first place. A "dumb" home needs maintenance as well. Maybe people just have an unrealistic expectation from smart devices?
- jeremyjh 4y ago
  It isn’t bad for people who like to do that but the scarcity of those people and their preferences for open solutions means it’s tough to make a lot of money there.
- brimble 4y ago
  There's a big difference between wiring up a new outlet that'll likely last for decades without further effort and will very likely require an identical or near-identical process to replace even 30 years from now, and care and feeding of fully-local "smart home" networks & interfaces. Most plumbing or electrical work I do will last decades. If I move, the same skills will transfer perfectly to the plumbing and wiring already installed in the new house. The last big innovation in any of that was PEX piping, which takes about five minutes to get completely competent with, and has been around for years already. People who can come out and fix any of that, if I don't feel like dealing with it, can be found anywhere and often work pretty damn cheap (unless you're getting ripped off). Almost all the maintenance is "buy part, replace part", which is fine because (in the scheme of things) most of the parts are very cheap. Add "smart" devices to any of that, and they're instantly the most finicky and needy part of the whole system.
  - jvolkman 4y ago
    But any decent smart switch works as a normal switch by default, without any care or feeding. Sure, controlling them remotely and adding them to automation takes additional work, but that's stuff that is just impossible with the dumb switches, and not a requirement to control the light fixtures.
markvdb 4y ago
For a new build or serious renovation with complete rewiring, this is mostly a solved problem. The Shelly pro 4pm installs in the electric wiring cabinet. It speaks MQTT standard messaging across wired ethernet, but it can also integrate with Shelly's cloud thingies. It's a smart, standards based drop in replacement for ordinary "dumb" AC teleruptor/impulse relay star topology wiring.

bfung 4y ago

100% agree > I'm not sure Matter is going to solve this because it doesn't do away with this business model. Zigbee and Zwave Matter, Zigbee, Zwave… https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

gregmac 4y ago

> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. I agree. It's a shame because Insteon products were pretty good for their time, for the most part. Granted, I never used their cloud stuff at all -- only local control (via ISY99 and later also Home Assistant). Though I'd say this was a long time coming; it had been nearly a decade since any new products came out. Early on, their power-line-only stuff was sketchy and had issues, but my later experience with the dual-band stuff was great. I had many devices in my last house (sold with the house). I bought all new zwave stuff for this house, because of the lack of anything new and I figured Insteon was a dying brand. Glad I did that. My biggest frustration is there's still no equivalent for the Insteon KeypadLinc. There's products that come close, and even have some additional features (that Insteon probably could have added via firmware), but nothing that stands out as overall better. The other thing that is still unmatched is the local linking. Zwave kind of has this ability with groups, but it's so much more complicated to setup and still less powerful (eg: I don't think you can set on-level or ramp-rate). It would be interesting to have more insight from Insteon as to what went wrong. Why did they stop innovating? I almost wonder if they bet big on cloud then sales didn't match their expectations. I'd be interesting to know what sales of Universal Devices ISY99 (and other similar 3rd party control products) were vs their own cloud-based controls -- I get the impression there were probably as many, if not more, ISY99 users than Insteon Cloud users.

Terretta 4y ago
> no equivalent for Insteon KeypadLinc there are a variety of HomeKit buttons that are sold as e.g. dimmers or multi-bulb, but in fact can trigger arbitrary homekit devices, scenes, automations, etc. i’m guessing these fall in the category you say “comes close”? an example of what i mean is “Philips Hue v2 Smart Dimmer Switch and Remote” which is actually 4 arbitrary device, scene, or automation buttons that magneticallly stays on wall or comes off to be a remote. there are also a few beautiful button sets made with wood, fabric, etc., launched on kickstarter. by working with homekit, you can be sure they will not require their proprietary cloud to stay functional. that said, i’m a fan of ipad touch wallmount, like this in white: https://www.amazon.com/VidaMount-Wall-iPod-5th-Mount/dp/B01N3QFQG5/ https://www.amazon.com/VidaMount-Wall-iPod-5th-Mount/dp/B01N... with this you get arbitrary button sets for arbitrary systems, and price is competitive with locked-in options — remember the very early days “Philips ProntoPro” universal remote with arbitrarily programmable LCD screens that could emulate any physical button layout? or if you want something that does that for limited scenes, plus AV remote any house guest can pick up and use without instruction, there’s the interesting LogiTech Harmony Hub with the “Companion All-in-One” remote that doesn’t have a screen but does have buttons for scenes, super useful if you’re in the Alexa or Hue systems. i use the on-remote buttons for the lights of the room the remote lives in.

colechristensen 4y ago

A couple of us are working on exactly this, just a side project for now. Essentially pairing open (as in protocol, data control) standards based cloud control and data collection with open hardware that could be repurposed or used elsewhere. If there are any features that would really make this enticing let me know here or in an email.

car_analogy 4y ago

> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. There is a bigger reason - what problem do they solve? How much money and/or time will using their products save me? The one area where there might be worthwhile savings is smart thermostats, but could 90% of those savings be accomplished with an offline thermostat with a timer?

mynameisash 4y ago
I played with HomeAssistant for a while, and I kind of liked tinkering around with things, but it was still a huge pain in the ass, and I have no delusions that it was saving me money or time. For someone going into this with the expectation of tinkering, it's fine. For a commercial venture, I don't see current 'smart home' products/services as very viable. I've already switched my light bulbs to LEDs; how much am I actually going to save by having them turn off automatically after a preset delay? Not much. One of my DIY projects was a couple smart plugs and a temperature sensor; at the peak of summer heat, when the house was hot but it cooled off at night, I automated ventilating our house. It had a great impact on our comfort without using air conditioning (which we didn't have). That is a decent use for this kind of stuff, but it's far too much effort for most people to go through.
- ungamedplayer 4y ago
  I have learned that almost any effort is far too much for people to go through.
gh02t 4y ago
There are plenty of useful/interesting things, e.g. reactive lights, more proactive climate control, controlling ventilation on demand, presence based interactions etc. Some of this can be achieved with dumb solutions, e.g. humidity controlled switch etc. But when you start integrating devices together they can coordinate to do much more complicated and "smart" things. Does everybody want to do that? No. How far do modern systems go towards achieving any of that? Ehh, IMO not very far unless you put a lot of effort into it. Do the UIs of modern systems really make setting up these sorts of complex interactions up accessible for the average person? Nope. Are there glaring privacy and security concerns? Yep. There are lots of perfectly valid criticisms, especially of "smart" homes as they are, but there are certainly lots of possibilities.

blahblarblar 4y ago

Central anything + smart home = miserable experience. If my router is having a sketchy connection I should never be blocked from turning my lights on, or have one random light in a scene fail to turn on. Someone needs to take the plunge and make the smart home a resilient mesh network that will work even in a zombie apocalypse.

bitcuration 4y ago
Yet as long as mobile is THE channel consumer live with, there is no other real option but go with cloud. Last example is use your phone to unlock Tesla's car door, remember? lol

bitcuration 4y ago

Cloud is inevitable when everybody wants to use mobile phone to control their home. Reminds me the Tesla car unlock from mobile phone incident. However, cloud is not the problem, the control and lock in of the cloud is. The future will lie in personal cloud for everything. This again is the resurrection of centralization vs. decentralization of everything on internet, the original promise of internet.

lupinglade 4y ago

Insteon isn't closed - it had an open and documented protocol and was supported by various software. It did not require "the cloud" either. The problem with Insteon is it was low quality hardware, not a very reliable protocol and there was a lack of good software.