5 ms·

So, your desire to have in person human interaction trumps my desire to stay home because like you say, you control the working conditions. What kind of shit is

So, your desire to have in person human interaction trumps my desire to stay home because like you say, you control the working conditions. What kind of shit is that?

unethical_ban 5y ago
The hostility you feel toward people wanting real human interaction is the hostility I feel toward introverts who think in-person interaction is useless, rejecting the social nature of human beings and wanting to lock themselves in their houses for the rest of their lives getting Amazon grocery deliveries and playing games online. If it seems like I'm projecting some anger at a specific scenario, I am. Let me pivot. Hybrid seems like a good option for teams, though it takes away the geographic-flexibility perk of WFH. I think WFH can be successful, but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. So we all just say "yeah it's great, it's just as productive" where I can plainly see a number of people are not. Flat out. Does that mean we should all go back to the office? Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Personally, the banter and whiteboarding and trips to get coffee and lunch with coworkers made working together better and more effective, it made work more enjoyable, and we worked together on problems a lot more effectively. Who enjoys Zoom meetings in themselves? --- I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.
- johnwheeler 5y ago
  uh, just go to a bar if you want human to human interaction? don't make me talk to you. you've already said you hate introverts. i don't want to talk to someone like that
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    I don't hate introverts. In fact, I've become a little more sheltered than I was during the pandemic. My best friend is an introvert. Several acquaintances as well - people who are intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and in some ways better than I am. But that doesn't make it a healthy lifestyle when taken to the extreme. As it applies to work, I feel there is a war going on between those who recognize and remember the social and professional benefits of working in person and building professional relationships, and those who don't. I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise. Running isn't always fun, but we do it. Interacting with humans isn't always fun, but we do it.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      > I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise You think being an introvert is so negative to your health that it will literally reduce your life expectancy? What exactly do you think introvert means?
      - unethical_ban 5y ago
        The definition on dictionary.com that fits my understanding best is this: "A tendency to turn inward, first examined by Jung, which often results in avoidance of social contact, isolation and loneliness." I see introversion/social anxiety/disdain of others in the modern world to be like depression, or getting winded after going up one flight of stairs. It doesn't make you a worse person, but it shouldn't be embraced - it should be seen as something to periodically work against to keep the condition in check. When we get winded after walking up some stairs, we see we should go on more walks or jogs. When we have depression, it is beneficial to get therapy, change habits, and/or take medication. When one finds themselves disliking the idea of interacting with people (even the occasional stranger), that is a signal to periodically flex one's "emotional muscles" to counter the condition. I don't like making appointments on the phone anymore. It causes me anxiety. I find that to be a fault in myself. It is a flaw. I sometimes don't get back to friends quickly when they ask how I'm doing or if I want to hang out. That is a flaw, and one that I need to work on. I don't embrace it. When I have a negative feeling about "people" - like "ugh, people are so annoying" - I remember that is poisonous thinking to mental health and put the thought away. Or at least, I don't embrace it.
- BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  >but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. If there are performance losses, why are they not being addressed? Why is there a blind assumption A or B is better? How are people able to BS their way through in a way they wouldn't in the office? This is an incredibly negative take when the opposite may just as well be true. If people don't want to lose this flexibility, that's an incentive to not drop their performance in a way that is measurable, making them at risk of losing that privilege. >Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Better, yes. More? Why would the assumption immediately be that we need more management, given that WFH resonates primarily with people who tend to be far more autonomous and communication-independent than those who want to work in office? If anything, this shows just how much management has been pushing a one-size-fits-all solution for decades to make it easier on them, at the cost of ICs. WFH is the tip of the iceberg in this regard.
- cardanome 5y ago
  There is a very good solution to that: have a Google Meets or whatever room that is always open and that anyone can join when they feel alone (maybe team based). For some people just seeing the faces of co-workers while working can help quiet a lot to not feel alone. Plus they can see you working so you feel social control. It is also super easy to have a quick chat whenever you want to as you can see who is in deep concentration and who is available. People that don't feel like being social can stay out of it. In practice, nobody is fully extroverted or introverted, so people can do whatever mixes their current needs. DO NOT MAKE IT REQUIRED. That will ruin it. I am always shocked that people still haven't figured out how to do remote properly.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  >>I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.<< Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. Why don't the offices down size and give people the option, while admitting there are time when people need to come into the office. Training is much more difficult (usually) when done remotely, so - when possible - why not take a month and come in to get the ropes tight and the boards nailed in, then everyone can figure out what's best for them. This saves the company money and makes people (ostensibly) happier. The team I'm working on is both remote and in the office, right now. A few people get on a conference call at the offices - sometimes in separate rooms, which is odd - and everything gets hammered out. I have a disability, which makes it MUCH easier to work at home, but if I have to, I can work in the office, and I did for years. It just required extra preparation and planning, etc. etc.
- greedo 5y ago
  If you don't think people can bullshit just as effectively in the office as WFH, you're misguided. Our team has several underperformers. They were bad in the office, but at least with WFH, they don't drag down other teammates. At the end of the day, if it's just as productive (if not more) WFH, then your personal likes and desires about lunch and a date with coworkers is just more BS that needs to die. Go work for a full office company, but don't make other people have to fill in the holes in your social life.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  I am also projecting some anger at a specific scenario. I am not that introverted, but I prefer to spend my social time with my partner, my parents, my in-laws, and my friends. I am not interested in going to an office which takes me several thousand miles away from those loved ones just so a work acquaintance can get their fill of in-person interaction. That person should truly invest in their own network and not a thin work relationship that will evaporate during the next re-org or job change.
closeparen 5y ago
I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell.
- greedo 5y ago
  You may not like Zoom calls. But that doesn't mean that others don't, or can't work with videoconferencing. My teams productivity is off the charts since there's so few interruptions. When we need to collaborate, it's easy. When we need to keep our heads down, we have fewer monkeys walking up to talk about their latest golf game.
  - closeparen 5y ago
    People who make decisions about these things collaborate continuously from the beginning to the end of every workday. They do not ever put their heads down personally. They know on some level that their subordinates need to do it, but usually position themselves against it, instead looking to make connections and generate new meetings to displace focus-work time. They live every day absolutely terrified that two of their subordinates might be toiling alone on related problems instead of meeting with each other about them, and do everything possible to prevent this kind of tragedy by strongly encouraging every meeting that might add any value. It's "maker's schedule, manager's schedule" - you don't need power-hungriness or real estate cost calculation to explain why management types prefer the office, it's just inherent to their worldview and the kind of work they do. Don't like it? Try to build a company whose managers do not come from the management community, and try to prevent them from developing this kind of mindset even as circumstances make it optimal for them. Good luck.
- arinlen 5y ago
  > I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell. Your comment does not have anything to do with realpolitik. You're just expressing your personal preference, and spinning it as if it was norm. Except that it's not. Far from it. Is your personal preference an adequate tradeoff for forcing all the inconveniences and downright degradation to the quality of life of everyone around you? I mean, why would I waste 1 or 2 hours of my life each day and be kept far away from my loved ones, and in the process be forced to endure a more expensive cost of living, just because some dude at the office doesn't feel like having an occasional 10min Zoom call?

So, your desire to have in person human interaction trumps my desire to stay home because like you say, you control the working conditions. What kind of shit is that?

unethical_ban 5y ago

The hostility you feel toward people wanting real human interaction is the hostility I feel toward introverts who think in-person interaction is useless, rejecting the social nature of human beings and wanting to lock themselves in their houses for the rest of their lives getting Amazon grocery deliveries and playing games online. If it seems like I'm projecting some anger at a specific scenario, I am. Let me pivot. Hybrid seems like a good option for teams, though it takes away the geographic-flexibility perk of WFH. I think WFH can be successful, but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. So we all just say "yeah it's great, it's just as productive" where I can plainly see a number of people are not. Flat out. Does that mean we should all go back to the office? Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Personally, the banter and whiteboarding and trips to get coffee and lunch with coworkers made working together better and more effective, it made work more enjoyable, and we worked together on problems a lot more effectively. Who enjoys Zoom meetings in themselves? --- I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.

johnwheeler 5y ago
uh, just go to a bar if you want human to human interaction? don't make me talk to you. you've already said you hate introverts. i don't want to talk to someone like that
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  I don't hate introverts. In fact, I've become a little more sheltered than I was during the pandemic. My best friend is an introvert. Several acquaintances as well - people who are intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and in some ways better than I am. But that doesn't make it a healthy lifestyle when taken to the extreme. As it applies to work, I feel there is a war going on between those who recognize and remember the social and professional benefits of working in person and building professional relationships, and those who don't. I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise. Running isn't always fun, but we do it. Interacting with humans isn't always fun, but we do it.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise You think being an introvert is so negative to your health that it will literally reduce your life expectancy? What exactly do you think introvert means?
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      The definition on dictionary.com that fits my understanding best is this: "A tendency to turn inward, first examined by Jung, which often results in avoidance of social contact, isolation and loneliness." I see introversion/social anxiety/disdain of others in the modern world to be like depression, or getting winded after going up one flight of stairs. It doesn't make you a worse person, but it shouldn't be embraced - it should be seen as something to periodically work against to keep the condition in check. When we get winded after walking up some stairs, we see we should go on more walks or jogs. When we have depression, it is beneficial to get therapy, change habits, and/or take medication. When one finds themselves disliking the idea of interacting with people (even the occasional stranger), that is a signal to periodically flex one's "emotional muscles" to counter the condition. I don't like making appointments on the phone anymore. It causes me anxiety. I find that to be a fault in myself. It is a flaw. I sometimes don't get back to friends quickly when they ask how I'm doing or if I want to hang out. That is a flaw, and one that I need to work on. I don't embrace it. When I have a negative feeling about "people" - like "ugh, people are so annoying" - I remember that is poisonous thinking to mental health and put the thought away. Or at least, I don't embrace it.
BlargMcLarg 5y ago
>but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. If there are performance losses, why are they not being addressed? Why is there a blind assumption A or B is better? How are people able to BS their way through in a way they wouldn't in the office? This is an incredibly negative take when the opposite may just as well be true. If people don't want to lose this flexibility, that's an incentive to not drop their performance in a way that is measurable, making them at risk of losing that privilege. >Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Better, yes. More? Why would the assumption immediately be that we need more management, given that WFH resonates primarily with people who tend to be far more autonomous and communication-independent than those who want to work in office? If anything, this shows just how much management has been pushing a one-size-fits-all solution for decades to make it easier on them, at the cost of ICs. WFH is the tip of the iceberg in this regard.
cardanome 5y ago
There is a very good solution to that: have a Google Meets or whatever room that is always open and that anyone can join when they feel alone (maybe team based). For some people just seeing the faces of co-workers while working can help quiet a lot to not feel alone. Plus they can see you working so you feel social control. It is also super easy to have a quick chat whenever you want to as you can see who is in deep concentration and who is available. People that don't feel like being social can stay out of it. In practice, nobody is fully extroverted or introverted, so people can do whatever mixes their current needs. DO NOT MAKE IT REQUIRED. That will ruin it. I am always shocked that people still haven't figured out how to do remote properly.
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
>>I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.<< Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. Why don't the offices down size and give people the option, while admitting there are time when people need to come into the office. Training is much more difficult (usually) when done remotely, so - when possible - why not take a month and come in to get the ropes tight and the boards nailed in, then everyone can figure out what's best for them. This saves the company money and makes people (ostensibly) happier. The team I'm working on is both remote and in the office, right now. A few people get on a conference call at the offices - sometimes in separate rooms, which is odd - and everything gets hammered out. I have a disability, which makes it MUCH easier to work at home, but if I have to, I can work in the office, and I did for years. It just required extra preparation and planning, etc. etc.
greedo 5y ago
If you don't think people can bullshit just as effectively in the office as WFH, you're misguided. Our team has several underperformers. They were bad in the office, but at least with WFH, they don't drag down other teammates. At the end of the day, if it's just as productive (if not more) WFH, then your personal likes and desires about lunch and a date with coworkers is just more BS that needs to die. Go work for a full office company, but don't make other people have to fill in the holes in your social life.
dougmwne 5y ago
I am also projecting some anger at a specific scenario. I am not that introverted, but I prefer to spend my social time with my partner, my parents, my in-laws, and my friends. I am not interested in going to an office which takes me several thousand miles away from those loved ones just so a work acquaintance can get their fill of in-person interaction. That person should truly invest in their own network and not a thin work relationship that will evaporate during the next re-org or job change.

closeparen 5y ago

I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell.

greedo 5y ago
You may not like Zoom calls. But that doesn't mean that others don't, or can't work with videoconferencing. My teams productivity is off the charts since there's so few interruptions. When we need to collaborate, it's easy. When we need to keep our heads down, we have fewer monkeys walking up to talk about their latest golf game.
- closeparen 5y ago
  People who make decisions about these things collaborate continuously from the beginning to the end of every workday. They do not ever put their heads down personally. They know on some level that their subordinates need to do it, but usually position themselves against it, instead looking to make connections and generate new meetings to displace focus-work time. They live every day absolutely terrified that two of their subordinates might be toiling alone on related problems instead of meeting with each other about them, and do everything possible to prevent this kind of tragedy by strongly encouraging every meeting that might add any value. It's "maker's schedule, manager's schedule" - you don't need power-hungriness or real estate cost calculation to explain why management types prefer the office, it's just inherent to their worldview and the kind of work they do. Don't like it? Try to build a company whose managers do not come from the management community, and try to prevent them from developing this kind of mindset even as circumstances make it optimal for them. Good luck.
arinlen 5y ago
> I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell. Your comment does not have anything to do with realpolitik. You're just expressing your personal preference, and spinning it as if it was norm. Except that it's not. Far from it. Is your personal preference an adequate tradeoff for forcing all the inconveniences and downright degradation to the quality of life of everyone around you? I mean, why would I waste 1 or 2 hours of my life each day and be kept far away from my loved ones, and in the process be forced to endure a more expensive cost of living, just because some dude at the office doesn't feel like having an occasional 10min Zoom call?