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I think a significant number of people get into leadership roles because they like human interaction. Their jobs still consist of doing human interaction all da

I think a significant number of people get into leadership roles because they like human interaction. Their jobs still consist of doing human interaction all day. And human interaction is genuinely very unpleasant on Zoom/Slack relative to real life. Frankly I don’t think there is an amount you could pay me to do back-to-back Zoom meetings all day every day. My price would be high enough that I’d retire on it pretty quick. Management doesn’t have to flee the industry in protest of intolerable working conditions; it controls the working conditions. We should it expect it, all else being equal, to secure the working conditions best adapted to doing management work. And that means presence.

5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
I think communication is a different subject. I have no problem with true flexibility where people are free to meet in person when it makes sense. I think the original comment is around owning the employee's time, which is most effected when you have some ownership of their physical presence. For example, we often have mandatory company wide meetings where the subject is only of interest to 5% of people but yet everyone is forced to be present and attentive for the entire period, adding another level of forced fakery to our daily lives.
johnwheeler 5y ago
So, your desire to have in person human interaction trumps my desire to stay home because like you say, you control the working conditions. What kind of shit is that?
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  The hostility you feel toward people wanting real human interaction is the hostility I feel toward introverts who think in-person interaction is useless, rejecting the social nature of human beings and wanting to lock themselves in their houses for the rest of their lives getting Amazon grocery deliveries and playing games online. If it seems like I'm projecting some anger at a specific scenario, I am. Let me pivot. Hybrid seems like a good option for teams, though it takes away the geographic-flexibility perk of WFH. I think WFH can be successful, but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. So we all just say "yeah it's great, it's just as productive" where I can plainly see a number of people are not. Flat out. Does that mean we should all go back to the office? Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Personally, the banter and whiteboarding and trips to get coffee and lunch with coworkers made working together better and more effective, it made work more enjoyable, and we worked together on problems a lot more effectively. Who enjoys Zoom meetings in themselves? --- I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.
  - johnwheeler 5y ago
    uh, just go to a bar if you want human to human interaction? don't make me talk to you. you've already said you hate introverts. i don't want to talk to someone like that
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      I don't hate introverts. In fact, I've become a little more sheltered than I was during the pandemic. My best friend is an introvert. Several acquaintances as well - people who are intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and in some ways better than I am. But that doesn't make it a healthy lifestyle when taken to the extreme. As it applies to work, I feel there is a war going on between those who recognize and remember the social and professional benefits of working in person and building professional relationships, and those who don't. I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise. Running isn't always fun, but we do it. Interacting with humans isn't always fun, but we do it.
      - bluefirebrand 5y ago
        > I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise You think being an introvert is so negative to your health that it will literally reduce your life expectancy? What exactly do you think introvert means?
        unethical_ban 5y ago
        The definition on dictionary.com that fits my understanding best is this: "A tendency to turn inward, first examined by Jung, which often results in avoidance of social contact, isolation and loneliness." I see introversion/social anxiety/disdain of others in the modern world to be like depression, or getting winded after going up one flight of stairs. It doesn't make you a worse person, but it shouldn't be embraced - it should be seen as something to periodically work against to keep the condition in check. When we get winded after walking up some stairs, we see we should go on more walks or jogs. When we have depression, it is beneficial to get therapy, change habits, and/or take medication. When one finds themselves disliking the idea of interacting with people (even the occasional stranger), that is a signal to periodically flex one's "emotional muscles" to counter the condition. I don't like making appointments on the phone anymore. It causes me anxiety. I find that to be a fault in myself. It is a flaw. I sometimes don't get back to friends quickly when they ask how I'm doing or if I want to hang out. That is a flaw, and one that I need to work on. I don't embrace it. When I have a negative feeling about "people" - like "ugh, people are so annoying" - I remember that is poisonous thinking to mental health and put the thought away. Or at least, I don't embrace it.
- closeparen 5y ago
  I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell.
  - greedo 5y ago
    You may not like Zoom calls. But that doesn't mean that others don't, or can't work with videoconferencing. My teams productivity is off the charts since there's so few interruptions. When we need to collaborate, it's easy. When we need to keep our heads down, we have fewer monkeys walking up to talk about their latest golf game.
    - closeparen 5y ago
      People who make decisions about these things collaborate continuously from the beginning to the end of every workday. They do not ever put their heads down personally. They know on some level that their subordinates need to do it, but usually position themselves against it, instead looking to make connections and generate new meetings to displace focus-work time. They live every day absolutely terrified that two of their subordinates might be toiling alone on related problems instead of meeting with each other about them, and do everything possible to prevent this kind of tragedy by strongly encouraging every meeting that might add any value. It's "maker's schedule, manager's schedule" - you don't need power-hungriness or real estate cost calculation to explain why management types prefer the office, it's just inherent to their worldview and the kind of work they do. Don't like it? Try to build a company whose managers do not come from the management community, and try to prevent them from developing this kind of mindset even as circumstances make it optimal for them. Good luck.
  - arinlen 5y ago
    > I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell. Your comment does not have anything to do with realpolitik. You're just expressing your personal preference, and spinning it as if it was norm. Except that it's not. Far from it. Is your personal preference an adequate tradeoff for forcing all the inconveniences and downright degradation to the quality of life of everyone around you? I mean, why would I waste 1 or 2 hours of my life each day and be kept far away from my loved ones, and in the process be forced to endure a more expensive cost of living, just because some dude at the office doesn't feel like having an occasional 10min Zoom call?
bluefirebrand 5y ago
> And human interaction is genuinely very unpleasant on Zoom/Slack relative to real life. I don't find being in the other side of a webcam much different than being on the other side of a table. Maybe that's a sign my own brain is weird but really, it's the same to me. > We should it expect it, all else being equal, to secure the working conditions best adapted to doing management work No, we should expect it to provide the working conditions best adapted to their team's needs. Fuck this whole idea that managers are more important than ICs.

5350-uiop-1130 5y ago

I think communication is a different subject. I have no problem with true flexibility where people are free to meet in person when it makes sense. I think the original comment is around owning the employee's time, which is most effected when you have some ownership of their physical presence. For example, we often have mandatory company wide meetings where the subject is only of interest to 5% of people but yet everyone is forced to be present and attentive for the entire period, adding another level of forced fakery to our daily lives.

johnwheeler 5y ago

So, your desire to have in person human interaction trumps my desire to stay home because like you say, you control the working conditions. What kind of shit is that?

unethical_ban 5y ago
The hostility you feel toward people wanting real human interaction is the hostility I feel toward introverts who think in-person interaction is useless, rejecting the social nature of human beings and wanting to lock themselves in their houses for the rest of their lives getting Amazon grocery deliveries and playing games online. If it seems like I'm projecting some anger at a specific scenario, I am. Let me pivot. Hybrid seems like a good option for teams, though it takes away the geographic-flexibility perk of WFH. I think WFH can be successful, but I absolutely 100% think a lot of people are bullshitting how effective they are at home, because none of the workers want to lose the time- and location-flexibility of WFH. So we all just say "yeah it's great, it's just as productive" where I can plainly see a number of people are not. Flat out. Does that mean we should all go back to the office? Maybe not, but it takes more and better management, not less. Personally, the banter and whiteboarding and trips to get coffee and lunch with coworkers made working together better and more effective, it made work more enjoyable, and we worked together on problems a lot more effectively. Who enjoys Zoom meetings in themselves? --- I respect some people work better remotely. We need to respect that some people genuinely work better in person, and stop accusing them of "just wanting to wield power over others" or something. There are legitimate benefits to the person and to the mission when people are in person.
- johnwheeler 5y ago
  uh, just go to a bar if you want human to human interaction? don't make me talk to you. you've already said you hate introverts. i don't want to talk to someone like that
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    I don't hate introverts. In fact, I've become a little more sheltered than I was during the pandemic. My best friend is an introvert. Several acquaintances as well - people who are intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and in some ways better than I am. But that doesn't make it a healthy lifestyle when taken to the extreme. As it applies to work, I feel there is a war going on between those who recognize and remember the social and professional benefits of working in person and building professional relationships, and those who don't. I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise. Running isn't always fun, but we do it. Interacting with humans isn't always fun, but we do it.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      > I think extreme introversion is as unhealthy as eating poorly and refusing to exercise You think being an introvert is so negative to your health that it will literally reduce your life expectancy? What exactly do you think introvert means?
      - unethical_ban 5y ago
        The definition on dictionary.com that fits my understanding best is this: "A tendency to turn inward, first examined by Jung, which often results in avoidance of social contact, isolation and loneliness." I see introversion/social anxiety/disdain of others in the modern world to be like depression, or getting winded after going up one flight of stairs. It doesn't make you a worse person, but it shouldn't be embraced - it should be seen as something to periodically work against to keep the condition in check. When we get winded after walking up some stairs, we see we should go on more walks or jogs. When we have depression, it is beneficial to get therapy, change habits, and/or take medication. When one finds themselves disliking the idea of interacting with people (even the occasional stranger), that is a signal to periodically flex one's "emotional muscles" to counter the condition. I don't like making appointments on the phone anymore. It causes me anxiety. I find that to be a fault in myself. It is a flaw. I sometimes don't get back to friends quickly when they ask how I'm doing or if I want to hang out. That is a flaw, and one that I need to work on. I don't embrace it. When I have a negative feeling about "people" - like "ugh, people are so annoying" - I remember that is poisonous thinking to mental health and put the thought away. Or at least, I don't embrace it.
closeparen 5y ago
I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell.
- greedo 5y ago
  You may not like Zoom calls. But that doesn't mean that others don't, or can't work with videoconferencing. My teams productivity is off the charts since there's so few interruptions. When we need to collaborate, it's easy. When we need to keep our heads down, we have fewer monkeys walking up to talk about their latest golf game.
  - closeparen 5y ago
    People who make decisions about these things collaborate continuously from the beginning to the end of every workday. They do not ever put their heads down personally. They know on some level that their subordinates need to do it, but usually position themselves against it, instead looking to make connections and generate new meetings to displace focus-work time. They live every day absolutely terrified that two of their subordinates might be toiling alone on related problems instead of meeting with each other about them, and do everything possible to prevent this kind of tragedy by strongly encouraging every meeting that might add any value. It's "maker's schedule, manager's schedule" - you don't need power-hungriness or real estate cost calculation to explain why management types prefer the office, it's just inherent to their worldview and the kind of work they do. Don't like it? Try to build a company whose managers do not come from the management community, and try to prevent them from developing this kind of mindset even as circumstances make it optimal for them. Good luck.
- arinlen 5y ago
  > I’m not a manager. But I do think it’s useful to apply a realpolitik kind of analysis here. Taking Zoom calls for a living is hell. People in power do not voluntarily consign themselves to hell. Your comment does not have anything to do with realpolitik. You're just expressing your personal preference, and spinning it as if it was norm. Except that it's not. Far from it. Is your personal preference an adequate tradeoff for forcing all the inconveniences and downright degradation to the quality of life of everyone around you? I mean, why would I waste 1 or 2 hours of my life each day and be kept far away from my loved ones, and in the process be forced to endure a more expensive cost of living, just because some dude at the office doesn't feel like having an occasional 10min Zoom call?

bluefirebrand 5y ago

> And human interaction is genuinely very unpleasant on Zoom/Slack relative to real life. I don't find being in the other side of a webcam much different than being on the other side of a table. Maybe that's a sign my own brain is weird but really, it's the same to me. > We should it expect it, all else being equal, to secure the working conditions best adapted to doing management work No, we should expect it to provide the working conditions best adapted to their team's needs. Fuck this whole idea that managers are more important than ICs.