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> no clear value proposition to even being in office two days There's plenty of value in in-person work. Body language is an important part of how we communica

by jpcfl 4y ago

> no clear value proposition to even being in office two days There's plenty of value in in-person work. Body language is an important part of how we communicate. Spurious social interactions in the office are often the inspiration of important company initiatives. Async communication (e.g., Slack) is, IMHO, much less efficient than sync communication (e.g., tap on my colleagues shoulder). My company has also implemented a hybrid pilot program: 3 in/2 out, with 4 weeks of discretionary remote work. I believe the idea is that there is value in remote work, and there is value in office work. Let's see if we can benefit from both.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
Yeah I was probably being too specific to my development role where we have managed (in fact company has grown in revenue) despite all communication being via slack or teams. I know there are cases where in person communication makes sense, but it should not be mandatory for all. This is why I say hybrid is a ruse because it applies to all and not just "flexible" for those who may need or prefer it.
- jpcfl 4y ago
  > should not be mandatory for all. Yeah, I'm not a fan of hard-and-fast rules. If you think remote work is what is best for you and the company, you should discuss and arrangement with your manager. I'm sure the company is just setting these rules because they need to send a clear message, and they want to try and contain remote work. Keep in mind that working remotely is still seen as an impediment to career development. People who work in the office tend to get promoted faster. Their work is more visible, they are presented with more opportunities, and, for lack of a better word, they can "schmooze" more.
sanderjd 4y ago
Sometimes I think the different camps on this just break down on the "shoulder tap" line. I hate having my "shoulder tapped" (literally or metaphorically) and never tap on someone else's shoulder. A message saying "hey let me know when you get a chance to talk" is so much better for everyone IMO. But I recognize that other people feel the opposite and I have no problem with that. I'd like to be able to work my way and for them to be able to work their way.
- jpcfl 4y ago
  > A message saying "hey let me know when you get a chance to talk" is so much better for everyone IMO No, it is not. A deferral comes with overhead and is not always required. Some people, including myself, enjoy the spontaneous conversations sparked in the office. When I need to focus, I communicate this with my team. If you do not like being disturbed, communicate this with the people around you. Everyone wants to be respectful of your time and focus.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    Did you see the end part of my comment about how I know other people feel differently? Your comment does not make me the same allowance. Which is exactly the kind of self assured interrupter I really don't like to work with, and which is easier to avoid when working remotely. To me, it is just rude to interrupt people unless they explicitly communicate that they don't want to be interrupted. But again, I recognize that others don't feel this way, and I try to self select into teams where that isn't the norm.
    - jpcfl 4y ago
      I don’t understand your point and I’m not sure how I could possibly interrupt you in this format of communication.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - sanderjd 4y ago
        I'll try to be more clear. Say we're working together. You're saying that the default should be that you can interrupt me at any time for an interactive conversation. I can override that default by saying explicitly, "hey please don't interrupt me for X period of time". I prefer the opposite default, where you would not assume I'm interruptible any time I haven't explicitly said that I'm not. Whereas I said in my comment that I understand that some people prefer to work the opposite of my preference and I just prefer not to work with them, your comment is pretty clear that you think your way is best for everyone. I don't think that's right. That's what I was trying to say.
silicon2401 4y ago
This is how your post reads to somebody who doesn't benefit from working in an office > There's plenty of value in in-person work. There's plenty of value for me in in-person work, so everyone should work in-person even if there's no value in it for you. > Spurious social interactions in the office are often the inspiration of important company initiatives. I only know how to socialize in person, so nobody should be allowed to socialize virtually > Async communication (e.g., Slack) is, IMHO, much less efficient than sync communication (e.g., tap on my colleagues shoulder). I want to be able to physically interrupt your concentration and intrude on your personal space without you having any way to stop me I hope this comment can help elucidate for you and other readers how miserable offices are for people who don't actually do better in-person, and how frustrating it is that people who want to work in-person feel the need for _everyone_ to work in-person with them, despite pro-remote people not needing others to change their working circumstances.
- jpcfl 4y ago
  I’m sorry you feel this way. If you are miserable at your job, I would suggest talking to your manager about it, or seeking employment elsewhere.
juve1996 4y ago
> Spurious social interactions in the office are often the inspiration of important company initiatives. And also major company conflicts. They are not all positive - many of these "social interactions" are bonds over hatred of the company and working to get out. But we ignore these sorts of interactions, for the narrative...
june_twenty 4y ago
> e.g., tap on my colleagues shoulder This reads like a parody! The people who want to WFH don't _want_ shoulder tappers to be able to tap shoulders :)
- jpcfl 4y ago
  If you don't want someone tapping on your shoulder, perhaps you should try telling them.
greedo 4y ago
Congrats, you've picked the worst of both worlds. It's interesting that you chose "Spurious social interactions..." Spurious means fake, btw. If fake interactions are "often the inspiration of important company initiatives" then you're in a world of hurt. And what's with the HR speak? You sound like either the owner or founder hoping that what you write is real.
- jpcfl 4y ago
  Woops. I mean spontaneous. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and not being a complete jerk about it.

by jpcfl 4y ago

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago

Yeah I was probably being too specific to my development role where we have managed (in fact company has grown in revenue) despite all communication being via slack or teams. I know there are cases where in person communication makes sense, but it should not be mandatory for all. This is why I say hybrid is a ruse because it applies to all and not just "flexible" for those who may need or prefer it.

jpcfl 4y ago
> should not be mandatory for all. Yeah, I'm not a fan of hard-and-fast rules. If you think remote work is what is best for you and the company, you should discuss and arrangement with your manager. I'm sure the company is just setting these rules because they need to send a clear message, and they want to try and contain remote work. Keep in mind that working remotely is still seen as an impediment to career development. People who work in the office tend to get promoted faster. Their work is more visible, they are presented with more opportunities, and, for lack of a better word, they can "schmooze" more.

sanderjd 4y ago

Sometimes I think the different camps on this just break down on the "shoulder tap" line. I hate having my "shoulder tapped" (literally or metaphorically) and never tap on someone else's shoulder. A message saying "hey let me know when you get a chance to talk" is so much better for everyone IMO. But I recognize that other people feel the opposite and I have no problem with that. I'd like to be able to work my way and for them to be able to work their way.

jpcfl 4y ago
> A message saying "hey let me know when you get a chance to talk" is so much better for everyone IMO No, it is not. A deferral comes with overhead and is not always required. Some people, including myself, enjoy the spontaneous conversations sparked in the office. When I need to focus, I communicate this with my team. If you do not like being disturbed, communicate this with the people around you. Everyone wants to be respectful of your time and focus.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  Did you see the end part of my comment about how I know other people feel differently? Your comment does not make me the same allowance. Which is exactly the kind of self assured interrupter I really don't like to work with, and which is easier to avoid when working remotely. To me, it is just rude to interrupt people unless they explicitly communicate that they don't want to be interrupted. But again, I recognize that others don't feel this way, and I try to self select into teams where that isn't the norm.
  - jpcfl 4y ago
    I don’t understand your point and I’m not sure how I could possibly interrupt you in this format of communication.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sanderjd 4y ago
      I'll try to be more clear. Say we're working together. You're saying that the default should be that you can interrupt me at any time for an interactive conversation. I can override that default by saying explicitly, "hey please don't interrupt me for X period of time". I prefer the opposite default, where you would not assume I'm interruptible any time I haven't explicitly said that I'm not. Whereas I said in my comment that I understand that some people prefer to work the opposite of my preference and I just prefer not to work with them, your comment is pretty clear that you think your way is best for everyone. I don't think that's right. That's what I was trying to say.

silicon2401 4y ago

This is how your post reads to somebody who doesn't benefit from working in an office > There's plenty of value in in-person work. There's plenty of value for me in in-person work, so everyone should work in-person even if there's no value in it for you. > Spurious social interactions in the office are often the inspiration of important company initiatives. I only know how to socialize in person, so nobody should be allowed to socialize virtually > Async communication (e.g., Slack) is, IMHO, much less efficient than sync communication (e.g., tap on my colleagues shoulder). I want to be able to physically interrupt your concentration and intrude on your personal space without you having any way to stop me I hope this comment can help elucidate for you and other readers how miserable offices are for people who don't actually do better in-person, and how frustrating it is that people who want to work in-person feel the need for _everyone_ to work in-person with them, despite pro-remote people not needing others to change their working circumstances.

jpcfl 4y ago
I’m sorry you feel this way. If you are miserable at your job, I would suggest talking to your manager about it, or seeking employment elsewhere.

juve1996 4y ago

> Spurious social interactions in the office are often the inspiration of important company initiatives. And also major company conflicts. They are not all positive - many of these "social interactions" are bonds over hatred of the company and working to get out. But we ignore these sorts of interactions, for the narrative...

june_twenty 4y ago

> e.g., tap on my colleagues shoulder This reads like a parody! The people who want to WFH don't _want_ shoulder tappers to be able to tap shoulders :)

jpcfl 4y ago
If you don't want someone tapping on your shoulder, perhaps you should try telling them.

greedo 4y ago

Congrats, you've picked the worst of both worlds. It's interesting that you chose "Spurious social interactions..." Spurious means fake, btw. If fake interactions are "often the inspiration of important company initiatives" then you're in a world of hurt. And what's with the HR speak? You sound like either the owner or founder hoping that what you write is real.

jpcfl 4y ago
Woops. I mean spontaneous. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and not being a complete jerk about it.