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We don't even know that. All we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were evacuated to Russia instead of through the frontlines to Ukraine. I can t

We don't even know that. All we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were evacuated to Russia instead of through the frontlines to Ukraine. I can think of a lot of quite reasonable explanations for that.

type0 4y ago
All we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were deported to Russia
stjohnswarts 4y ago
The could have let them leave Mariupol over a few days. Instead they carted them off to concentration camps, that doesn't seem like a reasonable explanation/action to me.
- caoilte 4y ago
  These are areas they'd been trying to get civilians to leave for weeks. Humanitarian corridors kept collapsing. We don't know why, but is it at least plausible that Azov forces (who have a record of massacring civilians in Mariupol) were working to prevent it. (Eg how the hell did hundreds of civilians end up trapped in the azovstal steel plant?) It is also plausible that some residents would prefer to go east to west. Not every resident of Eastern Ukraine supports the government. And we don't hear about it much, but reprisals and extra judicial killings of "collaborators" are happening. Finally there is self interest. It's by no means certain that refugees who go west will be able to return to Mariupol after the war. This will all get me voted down because it doesn't suit the narrative. I don't like the Russian invasion and I want it to fail but I also wish we were interested in the truth more than "winning the information war".
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    The russians could have let people leave Mariupol. I don't believe (and nothing you say would convinc me otherwise) that Putin doesn't have that much control over his own generals/top level officers. He's certainly picked a sad bunch but they can easily not launch artillery assaults at bus convoys leaving the city. They might have crappy comms but it's not that bad.

type0 4y ago

All we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were deported to Russia

stjohnswarts 4y ago

The could have let them leave Mariupol over a few days. Instead they carted them off to concentration camps, that doesn't seem like a reasonable explanation/action to me.

caoilte 4y ago
These are areas they'd been trying to get civilians to leave for weeks. Humanitarian corridors kept collapsing. We don't know why, but is it at least plausible that Azov forces (who have a record of massacring civilians in Mariupol) were working to prevent it. (Eg how the hell did hundreds of civilians end up trapped in the azovstal steel plant?) It is also plausible that some residents would prefer to go east to west. Not every resident of Eastern Ukraine supports the government. And we don't hear about it much, but reprisals and extra judicial killings of "collaborators" are happening. Finally there is self interest. It's by no means certain that refugees who go west will be able to return to Mariupol after the war. This will all get me voted down because it doesn't suit the narrative. I don't like the Russian invasion and I want it to fail but I also wish we were interested in the truth more than "winning the information war".
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  The russians could have let people leave Mariupol. I don't believe (and nothing you say would convinc me otherwise) that Putin doesn't have that much control over his own generals/top level officers. He's certainly picked a sad bunch but they can easily not launch artillery assaults at bus convoys leaving the city. They might have crappy comms but it's not that bad.