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Are you saying that these things are somehow not happening in Mariupol? We already know that Mariupol has been a subject of population abductions at the very le
by jhgb 5y ago
Are you saying that these things are somehow not happening in Mariupol? We already know that Mariupol has been a subject of population abductions at the very least.
- caoilte 5y agoWe don't even know that. All we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were evacuated to Russia instead of through the frontlines to Ukraine. I can think of a lot of quite reasonable explanations for that.
- type0 5y agoAll we know is that a large number of people in Mariupol were deported to Russia
- stjohnswarts 5y agoThe could have let them leave Mariupol over a few days. Instead they carted them off to concentration camps, that doesn't seem like a reasonable explanation/action to me.
- caoilte 5y agoThese are areas they'd been trying to get civilians to leave for weeks. Humanitarian corridors kept collapsing. We don't know why, but is it at least plausible that Azov forces (who have a record of massacring civilians in Mariupol) were working to prevent it. (Eg how the hell did hundreds of civilians end up trapped in the azovstal steel plant?) It is also plausible that some residents would prefer to go east to west. Not every resident of Eastern Ukraine supports the government. And we don't hear about it much, but reprisals and extra judicial killings of "collaborators" are happening. Finally there is self interest. It's by no means certain that refugees who go west will be able to return to Mariupol after the war. This will all get me voted down because it doesn't suit the narrative. I don't like the Russian invasion and I want it to fail but I also wish we were interested in the truth more than "winning the information war".
- stjohnswarts 5y agoThe russians could have let people leave Mariupol. I don't believe (and nothing you say would convinc me otherwise) that Putin doesn't have that much control over his own generals/top level officers. He's certainly picked a sad bunch but they can easily not launch artillery assaults at bus convoys leaving the city. They might have crappy comms but it's not that bad.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoThat's another strawman... I should know better than trying to discuss this sort of topic as it's obviously always impossible.
- jhgb 5y agoI'm not quite sure how you can mentally disentangle the destruction of a city from the destruction of its population. The two go hand in hand.
- watwut 5y agoHow is that strawman? Either of them. Real life behavior of Russian army (again) is not strawman. It is just what is going on.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- stjohnswarts 5y agoIt's not a strawman, it's a good point. Can you please point out records to me that there were orders (for American soldiers) in WW2 from the top down to take areas and rape, torture, and finally murder civilians in a systematic way like Putin is currently ordering to be done in Ukraine? I'm sure that it happened in some cases on a local scale from feet on the ground, but not top down like Russian top brass is ordering to happen in Ukraine.
- alienicecream 5y agoCan you provide a source for this claim that Putin or 'top brass' has ordered the systematic rape, torture, and murder of Ukrainian civilians?