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Why would Russia/DNR voluntarily level a city they want to incorporate into their breakaway republic? That's just falling into the "they're all orcs" propaganda

Why would Russia/DNR voluntarily level a city they want to incorporate into their breakaway republic? That's just falling into the "they're all orcs" propaganda trap. The use of artillery etc ramped up as the Russians realized they wouldn't take the city any other way, but if the Ukranian army / Azov had vacated Russia would have happily taken the city without a shot fired. Russia invading is already a war crime, but we don't need to pretend that they're behaving any differently to the way we did in Iraq.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Why would Russia/DNR voluntarily level a city they want to incorporate into their breakaway republic? DNR, isn't the main or controlling actor doing it, and “incorporate into a breakaway republic” isn’t Russia’s primary, much less sole, goal with their operation. > Russia invading is already a war crime Technically, no, it's a crime against peace, a separate category of breach of international law.
watwut 4y ago
In fact, they had an option of not leveling it. They also have option to not bomb hospitals too and they don't take those options. "Why" is speculation. Possibly because strategic impossible of city is in land and not in existing citizens who don't welcomed them anyway. Possibly to create pressure on Ukraine President. Possibly because this is what Russian army do routinely and don't need super concrete reason to do - this is not first time they leveled the city. They did not needed to do so in Syria nor in Chechnia. Genocides don't necessary happen because aggressor had no choice. Starting with assumption that they had no choice is judt yet another fallacy.
- caoilte 4y ago
  If you start from the assumption that the war wasn't necessary then you are correct to point out that leveling residential areas also wasn't necessary. However, we wouldn't have re-occupied cities in Iraq that resisted without leveling them and Russia wouldn't have conquered Mariupol without leveling the parts of the city that contained entrenched defenders. That's the awful thing about urban warfare. Luckily we're not at genocide yet, though.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Even if was was necessary, leveling residential areas of major city was not. But, that war was not necessary in the first place. Both war and the destruction of city were optional and deliberate. > However, we wouldn't have re-occupied cities in Iraq that resisted without leveling them and Russia wouldn't have conquered Mariupol without leveling the parts of the city that contained entrenched defenders. Both are crimes and mass murders of civilians. Neither was necessary. > That's the awful thing about urban warfare. Luckily we're not at genocide yet, though. Who is that "we"? USA in Iraq did not committed genocide. Russia in Ukraine is committing one now.
    - caoilte 4y ago
      What Russia is doing is evil. But if you call it genocide you do a cruel dis-service to the millions killed in Rwanda, the holocaust and even Ukraine during the holodomor.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Why would Russia/DNR voluntarily level a city they want to incorporate into their breakaway republic? DNR, isn't the main or controlling actor doing it, and “incorporate into a breakaway republic” isn’t Russia’s primary, much less sole, goal with their operation. > Russia invading is already a war crime Technically, no, it's a crime against peace, a separate category of breach of international law.

watwut 4y ago

In fact, they had an option of not leveling it. They also have option to not bomb hospitals too and they don't take those options. "Why" is speculation. Possibly because strategic impossible of city is in land and not in existing citizens who don't welcomed them anyway. Possibly to create pressure on Ukraine President. Possibly because this is what Russian army do routinely and don't need super concrete reason to do - this is not first time they leveled the city. They did not needed to do so in Syria nor in Chechnia. Genocides don't necessary happen because aggressor had no choice. Starting with assumption that they had no choice is judt yet another fallacy.

caoilte 4y ago
If you start from the assumption that the war wasn't necessary then you are correct to point out that leveling residential areas also wasn't necessary. However, we wouldn't have re-occupied cities in Iraq that resisted without leveling them and Russia wouldn't have conquered Mariupol without leveling the parts of the city that contained entrenched defenders. That's the awful thing about urban warfare. Luckily we're not at genocide yet, though.
- watwut 4y ago
  Even if was was necessary, leveling residential areas of major city was not. But, that war was not necessary in the first place. Both war and the destruction of city were optional and deliberate. > However, we wouldn't have re-occupied cities in Iraq that resisted without leveling them and Russia wouldn't have conquered Mariupol without leveling the parts of the city that contained entrenched defenders. Both are crimes and mass murders of civilians. Neither was necessary. > That's the awful thing about urban warfare. Luckily we're not at genocide yet, though. Who is that "we"? USA in Iraq did not committed genocide. Russia in Ukraine is committing one now.
  - caoilte 4y ago
    What Russia is doing is evil. But if you call it genocide you do a cruel dis-service to the millions killed in Rwanda, the holocaust and even Ukraine during the holodomor.