4 ms·

I guess that indicates the congestion charge could be higher. The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than th

I guess that indicates the congestion charge could be higher. The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than the carrot as the main incentive. The better solution is almost always to provide attractive public transport options. If you can do that then people will use them anyway. If you don't do that then people will do what you don't want instead unless you totally prohibit it. And if you prohibit it then maybe they won't come at all. The catch is that providing good public transport is a challenge even in densely populated areas and for long distance travel. Our biggest cities also tend to be very old and that means layouts that are far from ideal for running an efficient public transport network. The other catch is that good public transport is never going to be cost-effective in smaller towns and rural areas. So doing it would require a massive commitment from both local and wider government and in the UK we don't have that. Politicians tend to be very good at talking about grand ideas but no-one is willing to say "We need to put your taxes up 5% to subsidise loss-making transport infrastructure so there's a sensible alternative to cars for everyone who doesn't live in one of the biggest cities." This is why I'm not sure emphasizing public transport is the right long term policy here. Better infrastructure to support small-scale private transport seems a more promising direction to look -- bikes, e-scooters, future electric vehicles designed for one or two passengers and light baggage, etc.

dharma1 5y ago
Public transport into/in London is pretty good. Crowded but not unbearable, especially if you can avoid rush hours. I have a car in London but almost never drive into central London (just in my area and out of London) - getting in and around Central London is much better with public transport.
bananapub 5y ago
> The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than the carrot as the main incentive I...don't understand what your comment is about? London has excellent public transport that runs all the way into the non-London bits around it. it's mostly made of carrots. there are also a small number of sticks.
- Silhouette 5y ago
  London has good public transport internally. For people coming in from outside the picture is far more variable.
  - adwww 5y ago
    I can travel to central London from my home 100 miles to the West in 70 minutes by public transport. In any case, that's a fault of poor public transport in the shires, not London.
    - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
      I used to know people who would commute by train to London from Bath and Bristol. Every day. And others who would drive from central Wiltshire to London and back. Every day. Work from home should have highlighted the insanity of those kinds of work patterns. Trains are greener than cars, but no commuting at all is greener still. Unfortunately it's looking more like we'll be heading back to pre-Covid normal, with very limited mixed-mode working offered as a bonus to those who qualify for it.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        > Unfortunately it's looking more like we'll be heading back to pre-Covid normal, with very limited mixed-mode working offered as a bonus to those who qualify for it. Is it? Everyone I know with an office job has greatly expanded home working options. Most of them were previously 100% in the office, and now have the kind of 1 or 2 days in the office a week hybrid options that used to be exclusively for tech companies. And quite a few individuals I know have been able to go completely remote only having to go into the office a few times a year and have been able to move cities entirely.
    - Silhouette 5y ago
      In any case, that's a fault of poor public transport in the shires, not London. Please see my other comments in this discussion. There is no "public transport in X". There is only "public transport". It will never be cost-effective to provide mass transit outside of densely populated areas and major long distance routes so if you want to enjoy the benefits and shift people away from cars in large numbers then you have to accept that we all need to subsidise plausible alternatives for everyone, probably through some serious taxation and government spending.
hgomersall 5y ago
Talking about carrots for motorists is just privilege bias. We are where we are because of many policy decisions, many of which came with a particular world view, including the idea that motorists should have more infrastructure investment to support them. If you come at it from the perspective of active transport, removing cars _is_ the goal. Further to that, fewer cars means public transport becomes much better. We have to get into the virtuous circle where fewer cars begets more active transport and public transport which begets fewer cars. All non-toll roads are loss making, let's not pretend that cars are free. That's even before we get into a discussion about the negative externalities of driving. The Cambridge GCP (essentially a talking shop with a remit to deliver new infrastructure, but prefers to deliver reports instead) commissioned proposals on a "metro". One of those proposals had loads of small self guided pods. Superficially they seemed like a great idea until you looked at the flow rate required to have them deliver the people required, and suddenly you have the the road congested with pods (or, if you will, cars). Ultimately, you need a policy that is consistent with geometry: https://thewaroncars.org/transcript-episode-79-the-end-of-uber-with-cory-doctorow/ https://thewaroncars.org/transcript-episode-79-the-end-of-ub...
- timthorn 5y ago
  Pods were trialled between the West Cambridge site and the P&R and were proposed to offer 24 hour service, but the main Cambridge Autonomous Metro proposal was for units that could seat over 100 people. But the new mayor likes buses.
  - hgomersall 5y ago
    It was the Dromos proposal I was referring to. That's nowhere near a trial: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/on-demand-driverless-pods-mooted-for-2bn-cambridgeshire-autonomous-metro-18-03-2021/ https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/on-demand-driverless... Self-driving buses I'm all in favour of.
    - timthorn 5y ago
      Yeah, the pod trial was with Aurrigo: https://www.connectingcambridgeshire.co.uk/smart-places/smart-cambridge/autonomous-vehicles/ https://www.connectingcambridgeshire.co.uk/smart-places/smar...
tpm 5y ago
> The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than the carrot as the main incentive. That's mostly because the carrot does not work. You can't really do much better than a private car. Once you are ok with driving, and very many people are, it is the most comfortable and individualized means of transport. So realistically, on one hand of course public transport must be good, but on the other hand it does not matter as much. People will still use cars whenever possible. You have to make it difficult, expensive and uncomfortable. On the point of small private mobility I fully agree with you. This seems to be the future, if only our politicians would understand that.
- ebiester 5y ago
  If and only if you build the system around those cars. If there is no free parking and a parking lot is taxed like it is productive land, then parking is expensive. Cars are convenient because we have made the tax system cater to them. It makes for terrible cities for everyone not in a car at the moment.
- logifail 5y ago
  > Once you are ok with driving, and very many people are, it is the most comfortable and individualized means of transport. So realistically, on one hand of course public transport must be good, but on the other hand it does not matter as much. People will still use cars whenever possible. You have to make it difficult, expensive and uncomfortable. I think you're missing one really key factor, and that is time. If the traffic is sufficiently bad, even an easy cheap comfortable car journey stops looking attractive, because it is slow. UK example: I've had the "pleasure" of driving right across central London; my start point was within sight of London City Airport, my destination was Heathrow Airport. The shortest route is more or less a staight-line journey of about 25 miles. You would be crazy to attempt to use that route that during working hours. It is often faster to head straight out of London, and drive a long looping route, a total of ~60 miles in length. It will save you at least 20 minutes driving time. European example: a couple of months ago I was in the Austrian border town of Kufstein and needed to get to Innsbruck. I hopped on a Railjet train, which made the journey in 35 minutes with very few stops (only one, IIRC). By car it would have taken at best 60 minutes, assuming no major traffic issues. Motorway speeds are limited to 100km/h in that part of Austria in an attempt to reduce air pollution.[0] [0] https://www.tirol.gv.at/en/environment/vehicle-prohibitions-in-accordance-with-the-ig-l/ https://www.tirol.gv.at/en/environment/vehicle-prohibitions-...

dharma1 5y ago

Public transport into/in London is pretty good. Crowded but not unbearable, especially if you can avoid rush hours. I have a car in London but almost never drive into central London (just in my area and out of London) - getting in and around Central London is much better with public transport.

bananapub 5y ago

> The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than the carrot as the main incentive I...don't understand what your comment is about? London has excellent public transport that runs all the way into the non-London bits around it. it's mostly made of carrots. there are also a small number of sticks.

Silhouette 5y ago
London has good public transport internally. For people coming in from outside the picture is far more variable.
- adwww 5y ago
  I can travel to central London from my home 100 miles to the West in 70 minutes by public transport. In any case, that's a fault of poor public transport in the shires, not London.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    I used to know people who would commute by train to London from Bath and Bristol. Every day. And others who would drive from central Wiltshire to London and back. Every day. Work from home should have highlighted the insanity of those kinds of work patterns. Trains are greener than cars, but no commuting at all is greener still. Unfortunately it's looking more like we'll be heading back to pre-Covid normal, with very limited mixed-mode working offered as a bonus to those who qualify for it.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      > Unfortunately it's looking more like we'll be heading back to pre-Covid normal, with very limited mixed-mode working offered as a bonus to those who qualify for it. Is it? Everyone I know with an office job has greatly expanded home working options. Most of them were previously 100% in the office, and now have the kind of 1 or 2 days in the office a week hybrid options that used to be exclusively for tech companies. And quite a few individuals I know have been able to go completely remote only having to go into the office a few times a year and have been able to move cities entirely.
  - Silhouette 5y ago
    In any case, that's a fault of poor public transport in the shires, not London. Please see my other comments in this discussion. There is no "public transport in X". There is only "public transport". It will never be cost-effective to provide mass transit outside of densely populated areas and major long distance routes so if you want to enjoy the benefits and shift people away from cars in large numbers then you have to accept that we all need to subsidise plausible alternatives for everyone, probably through some serious taxation and government spending.

hgomersall 5y ago

Talking about carrots for motorists is just privilege bias. We are where we are because of many policy decisions, many of which came with a particular world view, including the idea that motorists should have more infrastructure investment to support them. If you come at it from the perspective of active transport, removing cars _is_ the goal. Further to that, fewer cars means public transport becomes much better. We have to get into the virtuous circle where fewer cars begets more active transport and public transport which begets fewer cars. All non-toll roads are loss making, let's not pretend that cars are free. That's even before we get into a discussion about the negative externalities of driving. The Cambridge GCP (essentially a talking shop with a remit to deliver new infrastructure, but prefers to deliver reports instead) commissioned proposals on a "metro". One of those proposals had loads of small self guided pods. Superficially they seemed like a great idea until you looked at the flow rate required to have them deliver the people required, and suddenly you have the the road congested with pods (or, if you will, cars). Ultimately, you need a policy that is consistent with geometry: https://thewaroncars.org/transcript-episode-79-the-end-of-uber-with-cory-doctorow/ https://thewaroncars.org/transcript-episode-79-the-end-of-ub...

timthorn 5y ago
Pods were trialled between the West Cambridge site and the P&R and were proposed to offer 24 hour service, but the main Cambridge Autonomous Metro proposal was for units that could seat over 100 people. But the new mayor likes buses.
- hgomersall 5y ago
  It was the Dromos proposal I was referring to. That's nowhere near a trial: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/on-demand-driverless-pods-mooted-for-2bn-cambridgeshire-autonomous-metro-18-03-2021/ https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/on-demand-driverless... Self-driving buses I'm all in favour of.
  - timthorn 5y ago
    Yeah, the pod trial was with Aurrigo: https://www.connectingcambridgeshire.co.uk/smart-places/smart-cambridge/autonomous-vehicles/ https://www.connectingcambridgeshire.co.uk/smart-places/smar...

tpm 5y ago

> The trouble with public transport advocacy is that it so often relies on the stick rather than the carrot as the main incentive. That's mostly because the carrot does not work. You can't really do much better than a private car. Once you are ok with driving, and very many people are, it is the most comfortable and individualized means of transport. So realistically, on one hand of course public transport must be good, but on the other hand it does not matter as much. People will still use cars whenever possible. You have to make it difficult, expensive and uncomfortable. On the point of small private mobility I fully agree with you. This seems to be the future, if only our politicians would understand that.

ebiester 5y ago
If and only if you build the system around those cars. If there is no free parking and a parking lot is taxed like it is productive land, then parking is expensive. Cars are convenient because we have made the tax system cater to them. It makes for terrible cities for everyone not in a car at the moment.
logifail 5y ago
> Once you are ok with driving, and very many people are, it is the most comfortable and individualized means of transport. So realistically, on one hand of course public transport must be good, but on the other hand it does not matter as much. People will still use cars whenever possible. You have to make it difficult, expensive and uncomfortable. I think you're missing one really key factor, and that is time. If the traffic is sufficiently bad, even an easy cheap comfortable car journey stops looking attractive, because it is slow. UK example: I've had the "pleasure" of driving right across central London; my start point was within sight of London City Airport, my destination was Heathrow Airport. The shortest route is more or less a staight-line journey of about 25 miles. You would be crazy to attempt to use that route that during working hours. It is often faster to head straight out of London, and drive a long looping route, a total of ~60 miles in length. It will save you at least 20 minutes driving time. European example: a couple of months ago I was in the Austrian border town of Kufstein and needed to get to Innsbruck. I hopped on a Railjet train, which made the journey in 35 minutes with very few stops (only one, IIRC). By car it would have taken at best 60 minutes, assuming no major traffic issues. Motorway speeds are limited to 100km/h in that part of Austria in an attempt to reduce air pollution.[0] [0] https://www.tirol.gv.at/en/environment/vehicle-prohibitions-in-accordance-with-the-ig-l/ https://www.tirol.gv.at/en/environment/vehicle-prohibitions-...