5 ms·
> I think Dunning Krueger makes intuitive sense. It’s been argued before that this is the only reason that DK gained any notoriety; because it feels right, not
by dahart 5y ago
> I think Dunning Krueger makes intuitive sense.
It’s been argued before that this is the only reason that DK gained any notoriety; because it feels right, not because it is right. It’s the “just-world” theory: we want to believe that confident people are overcompensating.
Is it actually intuitive though? Consider your own example. Most people who don’t know piano or figure skating are well aware that they don’t know, and do not rate themselves highly at all. Would it be surprising to learn that people who don’t know any law or engineering don’t often hold any doubts about their lack of skill, and by and large are not deluded nor erroneously believe they’re great at these things they don’t know?
The DK paper didn’t measure knowledge-based skills like piano, figure skating, or law. It measured things like the ability to get a joke, and conversational grammar. How would you rate your own ability to get a joke? (Does this question really even make a lot of sense?)
It’s important that the methods in the DK paper focused on tasks that are hard to self-evaluate, because when people have tried to replicate DK with more well defined knowledge-based activities, they have often demonstrated the complete opposite effect, that there is widespread impostor syndrome, and skilled people underestimate themselves.
- sn41 5y ago> It’s been argued before that this is the only reason that DK gained any notoriety I'm sorry, but I have to comment on a word in this line: I feel that increasingly, "notoriety" is used when "notability" might be better. A thief is notorious. A statistical effect is notable, imho. But I agree with your basic point: I can't skate, much less figure skate. And I am pretty accurately aware of that fact despite my lack of skill.
- dahart 5y agoNotoriety means “the state of being famous”, which is the meaning that I intended. I actually don’t want to use “notable” in this case, because that would imply that I believe the DK effect is real. Notorious might even be a good word here, since the paper has problems with its claims and its interpretation of it’s own data.
- hef19898 5y ago>> figure skating, or law Thinking about all the "INAL" answers and the obviously wrong "legal" advice and opinion on legal topics you can come across on HN on a daily basis, I think law is good example of people overestimating their knowledge. Replace figure skating with any other sports, so, and try having discussions about, e.g, a defeat of any soccer team. All of a sudden everyone just became a soccer coach. And everyone is able to critique individual player's performance and skill and technique. If anything, this proofs the DK effect rather well.
- sally_glance 5y agoBut is DK not explicitly about assessing yourself and not about assessing others? I feel like being able to critique the performance of others is different from being able to critique yourself. There might be a correlation between the two, but they're not the same.
- hef19898 5y agoThinking that you are better than the actual pros is the easiest to spot indicator of lacking self assessment, so.
- dahart 5y agoDK did not measure any actual professionals.
- whiddershins 5y agoThinking you know enough to critique others is a self-evaluation.
- dahart 5y agoDK did not measure whether people think they know enough to critique others.
- dahart 5y ago
- audiometry 5y ago"Most people who don’t know piano or figure skating are well aware that they don’t know, and do not rate themselves highly at all. " I think this case (real_skill = 0, perceived_skill = 0) is maybe a trivial case, and that the bit of truth DK-idea catches is when someone with very little skill considers how much work it would be to get to whatever a 'fully skilled' version would be, they woefully underestimate. Picture someone in their first summer of mountain biking watching youtube videos of the best guys. Yes, you know you can't jump like they do, or turn as skillfully, but you're getting better each month. However, you still grossly underestimate how hard it is to get to that skill level. At least it's my personal experience as a thoroughly unskilled!