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We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]. It won't do everything, but progress has been steady

We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]. It won't do everything, but progress has been steady and more and more projects are providing type libraries for it. But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want? [0] https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html

the_af 5y ago
> "We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]" What makes you think I'm not using mypy, or that I didn't read the article you linked to or follow its guidelines (which are very sensible)? In your mind, is it the only possibility when someone criticizes a tool that they are "using it wrong" (to paraphrase Steve Jobs)? No other possible reason? > "But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want?" Given that I didn't say or imply that I don't believe there are people working on improving mypy and Python type hints, "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't recommend to me again that I switch to a different language. That's not how this works.
- rglullis 5y ago
  > "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. What I am having trouble to grasp is: if you understand that Python is not a statically typed language, and if you claim that you do not want to "turn" Python into such, why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking? They are two separate things. That is the nature of the game. Do you have criticisms about limitations from mypy, fine, but then you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > "What I am having trouble to grasp is [...] why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking?" It's not my business to help you with your trouble grasping things, but why do you think I'm conflating type hinting with type checking? I specifically asked in this comments section what type hinting meant if not what I thought, and was told by several people "it's just standardized comments", which I then explained was unsatisfying (and other people agreed with me). > "you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool" How about both? Let me suggest you a more productive use of your time: address the article's complaints as a top-level comment (which I see you haven't yet). I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic than in correcting my alleged misconceptions?
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > How about both? Because the "issues" with type hinting that you are talking about are only based on what you wished it was, not on what it is or what it could become! Ask yourself this: what about the python's type hinting story you think could be improved without turning python into a statically typed language? What about the python's type checking story that is missing or broken and that is attributable to the language and not to the tool? > I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic. Quite frankly, no. My motivation for the conversation now is mostly to see how long is going to take you to realize that you are merely wishing that your motorboat could fly like a hydroplane. It's not about "misconceptions", it's about you complaining about something not meeting your unfounded expectations .
      - the_af 5y ago
        > "Quite frankly, no. My motivation for the conversation now is mostly to see how long is going to take you to realize [...]" Oh, I see. Well, I have no interest in that kind of conversation. Goodbye.
        rglullis 5y ago
        Please don't read it as snark. It was not my intention. What I am trying to say is that perhaps the lesson you could take from this it's to not think that something is "inferior" or "needs fixing" just because it doesn't immediately meet your expectations. It isn't Python's fault that you have to use at the job even though you don't like it. It isn't Python's fault that you have to use even though you are absolutely certain that dynamically typed languages are worse. It isn't Python's fault that type hints are just hints and can not become a full-fledged type system. It isn't Python's fault that mypy is still not mature enough to work reliably for you. And it certainly isn't Python's fault that your coworkers don't care about all that as much as you do.

the_af 5y ago

> "We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]" What makes you think I'm not using mypy, or that I didn't read the article you linked to or follow its guidelines (which are very sensible)? In your mind, is it the only possibility when someone criticizes a tool that they are "using it wrong" (to paraphrase Steve Jobs)? No other possible reason? > "But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want?" Given that I didn't say or imply that I don't believe there are people working on improving mypy and Python type hints, "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't recommend to me again that I switch to a different language. That's not how this works.

rglullis 5y ago
> "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. What I am having trouble to grasp is: if you understand that Python is not a statically typed language, and if you claim that you do not want to "turn" Python into such, why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking? They are two separate things. That is the nature of the game. Do you have criticisms about limitations from mypy, fine, but then you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool.
- the_af 5y ago
  > "What I am having trouble to grasp is [...] why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking?" It's not my business to help you with your trouble grasping things, but why do you think I'm conflating type hinting with type checking? I specifically asked in this comments section what type hinting meant if not what I thought, and was told by several people "it's just standardized comments", which I then explained was unsatisfying (and other people agreed with me). > "you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool" How about both? Let me suggest you a more productive use of your time: address the article's complaints as a top-level comment (which I see you haven't yet). I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic than in correcting my alleged misconceptions?
  - rglullis 5y ago
    > How about both? Because the "issues" with type hinting that you are talking about are only based on what you wished it was, not on what it is or what it could become! Ask yourself this: what about the python's type hinting story you think could be improved without turning python into a statically typed language? What about the python's type checking story that is missing or broken and that is attributable to the language and not to the tool? > I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic. Quite frankly, no. My motivation for the conversation now is mostly to see how long is going to take you to realize that you are merely wishing that your motorboat could fly like a hydroplane. It's not about "misconceptions", it's about you complaining about something not meeting your unfounded expectations .
    - the_af 5y ago
      > "Quite frankly, no. My motivation for the conversation now is mostly to see how long is going to take you to realize [...]" Oh, I see. Well, I have no interest in that kind of conversation. Goodbye.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        Please don't read it as snark. It was not my intention. What I am trying to say is that perhaps the lesson you could take from this it's to not think that something is "inferior" or "needs fixing" just because it doesn't immediately meet your expectations. It isn't Python's fault that you have to use at the job even though you don't like it. It isn't Python's fault that you have to use even though you are absolutely certain that dynamically typed languages are worse. It isn't Python's fault that type hints are just hints and can not become a full-fledged type system. It isn't Python's fault that mypy is still not mature enough to work reliably for you. And it certainly isn't Python's fault that your coworkers don't care about all that as much as you do.