5 ms·

Your "islands" anecdote is amusing, if a bit condescending. Do you honestly think it fairly addresses the very direct question I asked you? Also, do you honest

by the_af 5y ago

Your "islands" anecdote is amusing, if a bit condescending. Do you honestly think it fairly addresses the very direct question I asked you? Also, do you honestly expect me to detail what my team and company is optimizing for here? What for? What does it have to do with Python type hinting?

rglullis 5y ago
The problem I see is that you are trying to peg a square in a round role and thinking that the square is at fault for not being flexible enough. Anyone that has seen the py2 -> py3 debacle will tell you that "let's make python static" is not something that could happen unless you are willing to rewrite the entire ecosystem of libraries and applications, and quite possibly upsetting the majority of current users who were attracted to it in the first place precisely because it is so easy to get started with it. You can not turn Python into a "fully static" language without changing it so much to the point of making into a different beast. And why should others make all this work to fit into your view of what is "best" when you can just use another language in the first place?
- the_af 5y ago
  I don't want to turn Python into a statically typed language. I think there's valid criticism to be made about the flaws of its type hinting (as does the article's author), and I cannot help but compare its usefulness to static type checking. I also cannot choose the language. I'm not in a position to choose languages at my current job; I seldom find myself in that position at any job.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]. It won't do everything, but progress has been steady and more and more projects are providing type libraries for it. But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want? [0] https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html
    - the_af 5y ago
      > "We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]" What makes you think I'm not using mypy, or that I didn't read the article you linked to or follow its guidelines (which are very sensible)? In your mind, is it the only possibility when someone criticizes a tool that they are "using it wrong" (to paraphrase Steve Jobs)? No other possible reason? > "But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want?" Given that I didn't say or imply that I don't believe there are people working on improving mypy and Python type hints, "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't recommend to me again that I switch to a different language. That's not how this works.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. What I am having trouble to grasp is: if you understand that Python is not a statically typed language, and if you claim that you do not want to "turn" Python into such, why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking? They are two separate things. That is the nature of the game. Do you have criticisms about limitations from mypy, fine, but then you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool.
        the_af 5y ago
        > "What I am having trouble to grasp is [...] why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking?" It's not my business to help you with your trouble grasping things, but why do you think I'm conflating type hinting with type checking? I specifically asked in this comments section what type hinting meant if not what I thought, and was told by several people "it's just standardized comments", which I then explained was unsatisfying (and other people agreed with me). > "you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool" How about both? Let me suggest you a more productive use of your time: address the article's complaints as a top-level comment (which I see you haven't yet). I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic than in correcting my alleged misconceptions?

by the_af 5y ago

rglullis 5y ago

The problem I see is that you are trying to peg a square in a round role and thinking that the square is at fault for not being flexible enough. Anyone that has seen the py2 -> py3 debacle will tell you that "let's make python static" is not something that could happen unless you are willing to rewrite the entire ecosystem of libraries and applications, and quite possibly upsetting the majority of current users who were attracted to it in the first place precisely because it is so easy to get started with it. You can not turn Python into a "fully static" language without changing it so much to the point of making into a different beast. And why should others make all this work to fit into your view of what is "best" when you can just use another language in the first place?

the_af 5y ago
I don't want to turn Python into a statically typed language. I think there's valid criticism to be made about the flaws of its type hinting (as does the article's author), and I cannot help but compare its usefulness to static type checking. I also cannot choose the language. I'm not in a position to choose languages at my current job; I seldom find myself in that position at any job.
- rglullis 5y ago
  We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]. It won't do everything, but progress has been steady and more and more projects are providing type libraries for it. But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want? [0] https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/existing_code.html
  - the_af 5y ago
    > "We are going to go back in circles, but as I said in the very first comment: mypy is the tool you want [0]" What makes you think I'm not using mypy, or that I didn't read the article you linked to or follow its guidelines (which are very sensible)? In your mind, is it the only possibility when someone criticizes a tool that they are "using it wrong" (to paraphrase Steve Jobs)? No other possible reason? > "But given that your response to the mypy recommendation was to complain (it's slow, it doesn't catch everything) then it makes it difficult to acknowledge the "valid criticism"... as in: people are working on it, what else do you want?" Given that I didn't say or imply that I don't believe there are people working on improving mypy and Python type hints, "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't recommend to me again that I switch to a different language. That's not how this works.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > "what I want" is merely to support the article's assertion that the current version of type hints Python provides is confusing and not very good. What I am having trouble to grasp is: if you understand that Python is not a statically typed language, and if you claim that you do not want to "turn" Python into such, why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking? They are two separate things. That is the nature of the game. Do you have criticisms about limitations from mypy, fine, but then you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool.
      - the_af 5y ago
        > "What I am having trouble to grasp is [...] why do you keep conflating type hinting with type checking?" It's not my business to help you with your trouble grasping things, but why do you think I'm conflating type hinting with type checking? I specifically asked in this comments section what type hinting meant if not what I thought, and was told by several people "it's just standardized comments", which I then explained was unsatisfying (and other people agreed with me). > "you are not talking about issues with type hinting but merely the type checker tool" How about both? Let me suggest you a more productive use of your time: address the article's complaints as a top-level comment (which I see you haven't yet). I suppose you're more interested in the article's topic than in correcting my alleged misconceptions?