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> Why not price the network equally for everyone? It's not clear what this means. I guess in the context it means everyone pays the same unit rate per amount o

> Why not price the network equally for everyone? It's not clear what this means. I guess in the context it means everyone pays the same unit rate per amount of data transferred? I think there's more subtlety than this. I pay more for a 100MBit connection than a 10MBit connection, and also pay more for the data transferred over those connections? Are they allowed to charge higher speed customers a lower unit rate?

bombcar 5y ago
The question comes into play at the edges - when your ISPs upstream connection is filled what happens? Can they selectively drop packets or do they have to drop them randomly? And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group?
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  The "American Way" for this is pretty simple to see: 1. the destination customer can pay themselves into a tier such as "never drop" 2. the source customer cannot That is, retain "money is power" for individuals but add a veneer of social respectability by denying Netflix etc. to just buy up the bandwidth.
  - seanp2k2 5y ago
    The “American Way” of finding a good enough monopoly that one can afford to pay legislators to allow it to continue so long as taxpayers can be convinced that it’s not bad enough to favor a different candidate. Or, just get every candidate to support it! Then taxpayers have no choice and you win.
- d110af5ccf 5y ago
  > Can they selectively drop packets Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. > or do they have to drop them randomly? Yes. This is the only reasonable approach. > And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group? No. That should be illegal to offer. If the ISP's network is incapable of meeting their customer's demands during peak hours and they oversubscribed themselves so badly that they're contemplating such tactics then they ran their business dishonestly. They fraudulently made promises that they were incapable of delivering on and got caught. They need to fix their network or go out of business. And possibly should face legal consequences for their behavior.
  - amadvance 5y ago
    > > Can they selectively drop packets > Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. Why not ? From an engineering point of view, with a scarce resource, dropping only the biggest user (Netflix) looks reasonable. Obviously, it should be illegal to ask money to do not have them dropped.
    - wtallis 5y ago
      > From an engineering point of view, with a scarce resource, dropping only the biggest user (Netflix) looks reasonable. The decision of who is the biggest user needs to be made in realtime at the point of congestion, not identified on a quarterly basis by the accounting department and pushed out as policy across the whole network.
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    > > Can they selectively drop packets > Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. This is correct for selection based on the remote endpoint. OTOH, it's very reasonable to drop packets selectively based on the local endpoint, so that packet loss affects customers who are actually using 90-100% of advertised bandwidth (eg for streaming), but not those using <10% for stuff like checking their email. (Arguably, local-selection should be required, to prevent the ISP from making anti-net-neutrality FUD along the lines of "my neighbor's Netflix is making my email not work" actually true.)
seanp2k2 5y ago
> Why not price the network equally for everyone? Because settlement-free peering was a foundational piece of the internet until ISPs decided to ruin it: https://www.inap.com/blog/despite-comcast-netflix-deal-settlement-free-peering-alive-well/ https://www.inap.com/blog/despite-comcast-netflix-deal-settl...

bombcar 5y ago

The question comes into play at the edges - when your ISPs upstream connection is filled what happens? Can they selectively drop packets or do they have to drop them randomly? And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group?

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
The "American Way" for this is pretty simple to see: 1. the destination customer can pay themselves into a tier such as "never drop" 2. the source customer cannot That is, retain "money is power" for individuals but add a veneer of social respectability by denying Netflix etc. to just buy up the bandwidth.
- seanp2k2 5y ago
  The “American Way” of finding a good enough monopoly that one can afford to pay legislators to allow it to continue so long as taxpayers can be convinced that it’s not bad enough to favor a different candidate. Or, just get every candidate to support it! Then taxpayers have no choice and you win.
d110af5ccf 5y ago
> Can they selectively drop packets Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. > or do they have to drop them randomly? Yes. This is the only reasonable approach. > And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group? No. That should be illegal to offer. If the ISP's network is incapable of meeting their customer's demands during peak hours and they oversubscribed themselves so badly that they're contemplating such tactics then they ran their business dishonestly. They fraudulently made promises that they were incapable of delivering on and got caught. They need to fix their network or go out of business. And possibly should face legal consequences for their behavior.
- amadvance 5y ago
  > > Can they selectively drop packets > Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. Why not ? From an engineering point of view, with a scarce resource, dropping only the biggest user (Netflix) looks reasonable. Obviously, it should be illegal to ask money to do not have them dropped.
  - wtallis 5y ago
    > From an engineering point of view, with a scarce resource, dropping only the biggest user (Netflix) looks reasonable. The decision of who is the biggest user needs to be made in realtime at the point of congestion, not identified on a quarterly basis by the accounting department and pushed out as policy across the whole network.
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > > Can they selectively drop packets > Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal. This is correct for selection based on the remote endpoint. OTOH, it's very reasonable to drop packets selectively based on the local endpoint, so that packet loss affects customers who are actually using 90-100% of advertised bandwidth (eg for streaming), but not those using <10% for stuff like checking their email. (Arguably, local-selection should be required, to prevent the ISP from making anti-net-neutrality FUD along the lines of "my neighbor's Netflix is making my email not work" actually true.)

seanp2k2 5y ago

> Why not price the network equally for everyone? Because settlement-free peering was a foundational piece of the internet until ISPs decided to ruin it: https://www.inap.com/blog/despite-comcast-netflix-deal-settlement-free-peering-alive-well/ https://www.inap.com/blog/despite-comcast-netflix-deal-settl...