4 ms·

Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US preside

Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US president). Sixteen years of Kohl and Merkel governments, respectively, paralyzed the country and hindered progress especially in the digital sector.

guerrilla 5y ago
Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
  - prirun 5y ago
    Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years! I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
    - fmmlp 5y ago
      Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
    - screenbreakout 5y ago
      There's what's called stochocracy or as Wiki calls it Sortition , but I think it needs to take the whole population into account, depending on where you live. and using a polling system where even 20% of yes to a proposal (be it local, regional or national) allows a limited trial to go ahead... as to the larger question as to why our political masters are out of touch..power corrupts, vested interests and economic predominance in a society based on printing money to pollute the planet and producing a processed lifestyle.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20governance%2C%20sortition%20(also%20known,a%20larger%20pool%20of%20candidates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20gover....
    - ta123457864 5y ago
      This is how ancient Athens did it, I think, and I agree we should give it a go. Politicians are becoming like a caste, much too similar to each other and with very little exposure to real life.
wongarsu 5y ago
Because the US government isn't captured by corporate interests? They rank significantly worse than Germany on the Global Corruption Index [1] and on the Corruption Perception Index [2]. In a global comparison both are great, but relative to each other the US really isn't an example Germany can look up to. The chance of a government staying in government for a long time also means that governments have to think long-term because they might still be in government when the consequences come around. In the US system the optimal strategy is to do things that look good in the short term but backfire as soon as your term limit expires. That way you look good, and the next president (who's with near certainty from the opposition party) looks bad. I'd be more in favor of passing an age limit, but I'm well aware that that has no chance of happening. 1: https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ 2: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  To be fair the US is not actually corrupt. They have very legally and democratically signed over the state to corporations.
  - trasz 5y ago
    It’s still corruption, just legal and formalized.
- JamisonM 5y ago
  People always be linking to the Corruption Perception Index, there may be no worse resource for assessing actual corruption: "The CPI scores and ranks countries/territories based on how corrupt a country’s public sector is perceived to be by experts and business executives." Singapore's consistent ranking near the top is always hilarious to me!
moffkalast 5y ago
It's still the same party in charge, it's not like much would change in that case. But yes, every bit helps.
arlort 5y ago
Yes, and in other aspects having a stable leadership for long (and it's not like we're talking about eons, it's 4 elections) greatly benefited Germany People elected them and their party, their party had chosen them for the position. It's not like they forced anyone to put them there. Term limits in democracies make very little sense when they affect a President or other directly elected positions of great personal power They make no sense for chancellors or prime ministers who in any case are going to mostly be controlled by the parliament
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  I disagree on the term limit topic. Democracies benefit from change. Indeed I would argue that cadre change is their kill app. But it must be happening. The same top politician will employ the same ministers, consultants etc., thus slowly creating an ossifying structure that aggregates a lot of mistakes of the same type. It is a process that reminds me of inbreeding in biology. Small pathologies slowly become more pronounced. As we live longer and longer, we run into a risk that our Senates etc. will turn into gerontocracies of 80+ year old people and that a typical intern will be fifty.

guerrilla 5y ago

Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...

hetspookjee 5y ago
They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
- prirun 5y ago
  Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years! I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
  - fmmlp 5y ago
    Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
  - screenbreakout 5y ago
    There's what's called stochocracy or as Wiki calls it Sortition , but I think it needs to take the whole population into account, depending on where you live. and using a polling system where even 20% of yes to a proposal (be it local, regional or national) allows a limited trial to go ahead... as to the larger question as to why our political masters are out of touch..power corrupts, vested interests and economic predominance in a society based on printing money to pollute the planet and producing a processed lifestyle.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20governance%2C%20sortition%20(also%20known,a%20larger%20pool%20of%20candidates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20gover....
  - ta123457864 5y ago
    This is how ancient Athens did it, I think, and I agree we should give it a go. Politicians are becoming like a caste, much too similar to each other and with very little exposure to real life.

wongarsu 5y ago

Because the US government isn't captured by corporate interests? They rank significantly worse than Germany on the Global Corruption Index [1] and on the Corruption Perception Index [2]. In a global comparison both are great, but relative to each other the US really isn't an example Germany can look up to. The chance of a government staying in government for a long time also means that governments have to think long-term because they might still be in government when the consequences come around. In the US system the optimal strategy is to do things that look good in the short term but backfire as soon as your term limit expires. That way you look good, and the next president (who's with near certainty from the opposition party) looks bad. I'd be more in favor of passing an age limit, but I'm well aware that that has no chance of happening. 1: https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ 2: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
To be fair the US is not actually corrupt. They have very legally and democratically signed over the state to corporations.
- trasz 5y ago
  It’s still corruption, just legal and formalized.
JamisonM 5y ago
People always be linking to the Corruption Perception Index, there may be no worse resource for assessing actual corruption: "The CPI scores and ranks countries/territories based on how corrupt a country’s public sector is perceived to be by experts and business executives." Singapore's consistent ranking near the top is always hilarious to me!

moffkalast 5y ago

It's still the same party in charge, it's not like much would change in that case. But yes, every bit helps.

arlort 5y ago

Yes, and in other aspects having a stable leadership for long (and it's not like we're talking about eons, it's 4 elections) greatly benefited Germany People elected them and their party, their party had chosen them for the position. It's not like they forced anyone to put them there. Term limits in democracies make very little sense when they affect a President or other directly elected positions of great personal power They make no sense for chancellors or prime ministers who in any case are going to mostly be controlled by the parliament

inglor_cz 5y ago
I disagree on the term limit topic. Democracies benefit from change. Indeed I would argue that cadre change is their kill app. But it must be happening. The same top politician will employ the same ministers, consultants etc., thus slowly creating an ossifying structure that aggregates a lot of mistakes of the same type. It is a process that reminds me of inbreeding in biology. Small pathologies slowly become more pronounced. As we live longer and longer, we run into a risk that our Senates etc. will turn into gerontocracies of 80+ year old people and that a typical intern will be fifty.