15 ms·

If you actually build one yourself (not just limited to this particular mixer, but also e.g. analog synthesizers, FM synthesizers, samplers, …), you'll be surpr

If you actually build one yourself (not just limited to this particular mixer, but also e.g. analog synthesizers, FM synthesizers, samplers, …), you'll be surprised by how ridiculously overpriced almost all of the available audio hardware really is. The sad part is that in many cases your prototype will be cheaper than the commercially available audio hardware. In practice you'll probably skip the "and bring it to market" step though, because usually you'll start such a project because you wanted to have a specific mixer/synthesizer/sampler/…, and once you have it on your desk, the next project usually looks more interesting than spending the extra time to sell whatever you just developed.

IAmPym 4y ago
As someone who literally does this for a living at Sequential, you couldn't be more wrong
- javajosh 4y ago
  I don't do this for a living and can't imagine how a statement like "your prototype will be cheaper than commercially available options" could be taken seriously by anyone.
  - eternityforest 4y ago
    If you don't count your time whatsoever and don't go for the nice case design. I mean at the extreme case, if you can tolerate 40ms of latency and stuttering, a Raspberry Pi and some USB soundcards can do it all. The actual power needed is reasonable and ADC/DACs aren't that insane. A Teensy 4.1 connected to an ESP32 could probably do most of this, if you wanted to do $15k of software development in your spare time and were really good at DSP.
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      Anyone who can tolerate 40ms of latency should stick to Bluetooth. If it's more than 3ms, it's already more latency than a good RF system gives you, if it's more than 10ms things are getting questionable, and at 20+ms you've lost the ability to monitor, because what your fingers/voice do and what your ears hear are now noticeably out of sync. Try singing while monitoring yourself at 20ms delay. It's hilarious.
      - eternityforest 4y ago
        I can kind of mostly sing up to 35ms or so, but at 40ms and up it's a real clown show. My playing is already sloppy enough to not be affected till maybe 15 or so.... but it would clearly be different with a pro!
    - an-unknown 4y ago
      Interestingly enough, it seems like the KORG wavestate is actually based on some Raspberry Pi, according to KORG's github page, so you can definitely get less than 40ms latency and no stutter. And yeah, Teensy or even FPGA evaluation boards can get you very far, since software development in your spare time is "free". If you search the web, you'll find many examples of such projects. For example I remember some FPGA based project with iirc a small ~50€ Spartan-6 eval board which implemented a fancy 32 voice 6op FM synthesizer.
      - eternityforest 4y ago
        I wonder how they're doing it? Do they have a custom kernel? Or maybe they just have some good IO. It doesn't seem to be CPU limited exactly, it's just the built in sound device doesn't like it if you turn down the block size too much. USB cards are a bit happier.
zokier 4y ago
> The sad part is that in many cases your prototype will be cheaper than the commercially available audio hardware. Are you including those probably custom knurled knobs, buttons and sliders in that guesstimate too? Because those are the sort of things I'd expect to bring the cost up here. Heck, that beautifully finished aluminum case with its beveled edges alone is good chunk of money.
alfalfasprout 4y ago
As others have mentioned you're not considering the enclosure at all. And doubtful you're including your time, QA, etc.
- an-unknown 4y ago
  Except that's exactly the point: if you do this in your spare time, the development time is essentially "free". The only things that cost money if you do it in your spare time are the actual materials / PCBs / components / energy. And that is in fact rather cheap, provided you have the necessary skills and tools. Since this whole post was about a Teenage Engineering hardware module originally, which has a strong focus on the case: if you own / have access to the necessary tools already (e.g. lathe, milling machine, …), it's a bit time consuming but not exactly expensive to build something similar. Sure, e.g. aluminum costs money, but together with the electronics I'd be surprised if you really spend 1200€ (price of the TX-6). Of course in that case it wouldn't really scale if you wanted to produce more modules in the end. For completeness, the TX-6 page specifically mentions the ADCs and DACs used. If you check the (current!) prices on mouser/digikey, they are ~5€ for the 4ch ADC chip (you'll need 3), ~15€ for one of the DAC chips and ~13€ for the other one. Then maybe add some fancy STM32 microcontroller for another 15€ and you essentially got the digital part already, excluding wireless connectivity. You'll still need a few analog components, the faders, the switches, connectors, and a display (probably the most expensive part). Feel free to guesstimate what the complete electronics and aluminum case would cost, but as I said, I'd be surprised if you get even close to 1200€, even if you need a 2nd revision of the electronics. There are also various examples of people building e.g. clones of Moog synthesizers like the Minimoog (including keyboard, wooden case, …) in their spare time, for less money than what the original Moog synthesizer would cost.

IAmPym 4y ago

As someone who literally does this for a living at Sequential, you couldn't be more wrong

javajosh 4y ago
I don't do this for a living and can't imagine how a statement like "your prototype will be cheaper than commercially available options" could be taken seriously by anyone.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  If you don't count your time whatsoever and don't go for the nice case design. I mean at the extreme case, if you can tolerate 40ms of latency and stuttering, a Raspberry Pi and some USB soundcards can do it all. The actual power needed is reasonable and ADC/DACs aren't that insane. A Teensy 4.1 connected to an ESP32 could probably do most of this, if you wanted to do $15k of software development in your spare time and were really good at DSP.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    Anyone who can tolerate 40ms of latency should stick to Bluetooth. If it's more than 3ms, it's already more latency than a good RF system gives you, if it's more than 10ms things are getting questionable, and at 20+ms you've lost the ability to monitor, because what your fingers/voice do and what your ears hear are now noticeably out of sync. Try singing while monitoring yourself at 20ms delay. It's hilarious.
    - eternityforest 4y ago
      I can kind of mostly sing up to 35ms or so, but at 40ms and up it's a real clown show. My playing is already sloppy enough to not be affected till maybe 15 or so.... but it would clearly be different with a pro!
  - an-unknown 4y ago
    Interestingly enough, it seems like the KORG wavestate is actually based on some Raspberry Pi, according to KORG's github page, so you can definitely get less than 40ms latency and no stutter. And yeah, Teensy or even FPGA evaluation boards can get you very far, since software development in your spare time is "free". If you search the web, you'll find many examples of such projects. For example I remember some FPGA based project with iirc a small ~50€ Spartan-6 eval board which implemented a fancy 32 voice 6op FM synthesizer.
    - eternityforest 4y ago
      I wonder how they're doing it? Do they have a custom kernel? Or maybe they just have some good IO. It doesn't seem to be CPU limited exactly, it's just the built in sound device doesn't like it if you turn down the block size too much. USB cards are a bit happier.

zokier 4y ago

> The sad part is that in many cases your prototype will be cheaper than the commercially available audio hardware. Are you including those probably custom knurled knobs, buttons and sliders in that guesstimate too? Because those are the sort of things I'd expect to bring the cost up here. Heck, that beautifully finished aluminum case with its beveled edges alone is good chunk of money.

alfalfasprout 4y ago

As others have mentioned you're not considering the enclosure at all. And doubtful you're including your time, QA, etc.

an-unknown 4y ago
Except that's exactly the point: if you do this in your spare time, the development time is essentially "free". The only things that cost money if you do it in your spare time are the actual materials / PCBs / components / energy. And that is in fact rather cheap, provided you have the necessary skills and tools. Since this whole post was about a Teenage Engineering hardware module originally, which has a strong focus on the case: if you own / have access to the necessary tools already (e.g. lathe, milling machine, …), it's a bit time consuming but not exactly expensive to build something similar. Sure, e.g. aluminum costs money, but together with the electronics I'd be surprised if you really spend 1200€ (price of the TX-6). Of course in that case it wouldn't really scale if you wanted to produce more modules in the end. For completeness, the TX-6 page specifically mentions the ADCs and DACs used. If you check the (current!) prices on mouser/digikey, they are ~5€ for the 4ch ADC chip (you'll need 3), ~15€ for one of the DAC chips and ~13€ for the other one. Then maybe add some fancy STM32 microcontroller for another 15€ and you essentially got the digital part already, excluding wireless connectivity. You'll still need a few analog components, the faders, the switches, connectors, and a display (probably the most expensive part). Feel free to guesstimate what the complete electronics and aluminum case would cost, but as I said, I'd be surprised if you get even close to 1200€, even if you need a 2nd revision of the electronics. There are also various examples of people building e.g. clones of Moog synthesizers like the Minimoog (including keyboard, wooden case, …) in their spare time, for less money than what the original Moog synthesizer would cost.