4 ms·

From your comment, you went unnecessarily political regarding the January 6, 2021 insurrection. In my view, this is why people downvoted your comment. The commo

by tomrod 5y ago

From your comment, you went unnecessarily political regarding the January 6, 2021 insurrection. In my view, this is why people downvoted your comment. The common narrative is that it was insurrection. It was certainly a dangerous mob driven by Trump and cronies intending to interfere with the US election proceedings without justifiable cause beyond pseudo-creedal feelings that somewhere, somehow, the election was stolen.

incomingpain 5y ago
>From your comment, you went unnecessarily political regarding the January 6, 2021 insurrection. In my view, this is why people downvoted your comment. The common narrative is that it was insurrection That hasn't been true for months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_att... Wiki used to call it insurrection but it's not that. I understand the criticism that perhaps it's because it's political, but that's the because the whole subject is political. >It was certainly a dangerous mob driven by Trump and cronies intending to interfere with the US election proceedings without justifiable cause beyond pseudo-creedal feelings that somewhere, somehow, the election was stolen. Dangerous seems an over reach. Contemporary comparison you have mostly peaceful riots and actual insurrections like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest It's really important to see what's happening here. It's ultra important to be able to talk about these things. Republicans need to address the police brutality and objectively proven racism. Democrats need to address some things as well. These conversations have to happen and they are going to hurt.
- notacoward 5y ago
  > Wiki used to call it insurrection but it's not that. They don't call it insurrection only because "seditious conspiracy" is the more legally accurate term, and the charge on which convictions have already been obtained. But ask a layperson to describe the difference and you'll get nothing. Even the US house and senate voted on impeachment for "incitement of insurrection" despite the legal distinction. Saying that it's "not insurrection[legal]" might be true, but HN is not a court and saying "not insurrection[common]" here is false.
  - superturkey650 5y ago
    Besides that, the subtitle of the article on Wikipedia is literally “ Violent insurrection after the 2020 presidential election”.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    > But ask a layperson to describe the difference and you'll get nothing. Even the US house and senate voted on impeachment for "incitement of insurrection" despite the legal distinction. \o layperson here. My observation of January 6 was the people being punished were part of a hapless, mindless mob who believed the lies of kakistocrats playing on their economic insecurities and political loyalties.
  - incomingpain 5y ago
    I withdraw my position about US government and twitter. >They don't call it insurrection only because "seditious conspiracy" is the more legally accurate term, and the charge on which convictions have already been obtained. I think I saw this on twitter. I'm not going to argue over this one. Even the wikipage extensively uses the word insurrection still. This is a super non-issue. In fact, the differing reactions and hard line take on these contemporary political protests is all that matters. I could also point out, but it won't help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict... Elon isn't too late. Seemingly he's ahead of me on this one. I didn't realize how bad it is. I just hope Canada and Mexico stay out of this.
phkahler 5y ago
Yeah, one group of "protestors" can take over a small section of a city, push the authorities out, loot and riot. But another "protest" gets a little out of hand and it's an attempt to overthrow the government. Trump lost, can nobody see that continuing to talk about him is counterproductive? On both sides!
- tomrod 5y ago
  > Yeah, one group of "protestors" can take over a small section of a city, push the authorities out, loot and riot. If you read my prior comment, you'll note a distinct lack of discussion regarding this unrelated topic. > But another "protest" gets a little out of hand and it's an attempt to overthrow the government. Correct. The mob that actually performed the violent protest may not have come to the Capitol that day to overthrow the government, but the people spurring them on had other designs. Calling for the murder of the government official performing their duty is a key tell for that; to my understanding there is further evidence beyond incendiary and violent rhetoric. But please, let's stay on topic instead of deflecting to the ills of Antifa and her counter-agitators. That conversation just reinforces the backfire effect since the trivial triggering conversation challenges deeply held worldviews.[0] [0] https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe_clean https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe_clean
bavell 5y ago
LOL no sane person thought the country was going to be taken over by some grandmas and goofy morons...
- tomrod 5y ago
  Correct. But interfering with election proceedings, never mind being encouraged to kill the people charged with finalizing those proceedings, could lend to chaos and give incumbents (who are stocking the chaos) opportunities to seize control -- an effective coup. Don't confuse tools with crafters.
  - bavell 5y ago
    I hear you, but as soon as anyone "siezed control" they would be summarily thrown out in the mud and made a laughing stock by the entirety of the nation. Don't let the tiny vocal minority of fools chanting election fraud trick you into thinking regular folks would go along with some half-baked coup attempt - they'd be met with laughter and scorn. I've discussed this at length with friends and family, some of whom have pretty strong political views.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      Ah yes, "it could never happen here." But if they're in nominal control of the military, and have 40% of the country expressing a modicum of sympathy, then you let loose a pretty dangerous situation.
vvvzxd 5y ago
>The common narrative is that it was insurrection. how many people from Jan 6 have been charged with insurrection?
- tomrod 5y ago
  The event was an insurrection. Several have been charged with seditious conspiracy, as your earlier commenters have pointed out. Others have other charges. Here is a quick Google result for your perusal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/all-the-us-capi...

by tomrod 5y ago

incomingpain 5y ago

>From your comment, you went unnecessarily political regarding the January 6, 2021 insurrection. In my view, this is why people downvoted your comment. The common narrative is that it was insurrection That hasn't been true for months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_att... Wiki used to call it insurrection but it's not that. I understand the criticism that perhaps it's because it's political, but that's the because the whole subject is political. >It was certainly a dangerous mob driven by Trump and cronies intending to interfere with the US election proceedings without justifiable cause beyond pseudo-creedal feelings that somewhere, somehow, the election was stolen. Dangerous seems an over reach. Contemporary comparison you have mostly peaceful riots and actual insurrections like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest It's really important to see what's happening here. It's ultra important to be able to talk about these things. Republicans need to address the police brutality and objectively proven racism. Democrats need to address some things as well. These conversations have to happen and they are going to hurt.

notacoward 5y ago
> Wiki used to call it insurrection but it's not that. They don't call it insurrection only because "seditious conspiracy" is the more legally accurate term, and the charge on which convictions have already been obtained. But ask a layperson to describe the difference and you'll get nothing. Even the US house and senate voted on impeachment for "incitement of insurrection" despite the legal distinction. Saying that it's "not insurrection[legal]" might be true, but HN is not a court and saying "not insurrection[common]" here is false.
- superturkey650 5y ago
  Besides that, the subtitle of the article on Wikipedia is literally “ Violent insurrection after the 2020 presidential election”.
- tomrod 5y ago
  > But ask a layperson to describe the difference and you'll get nothing. Even the US house and senate voted on impeachment for "incitement of insurrection" despite the legal distinction. \o layperson here. My observation of January 6 was the people being punished were part of a hapless, mindless mob who believed the lies of kakistocrats playing on their economic insecurities and political loyalties.
- incomingpain 5y ago
  I withdraw my position about US government and twitter. >They don't call it insurrection only because "seditious conspiracy" is the more legally accurate term, and the charge on which convictions have already been obtained. I think I saw this on twitter. I'm not going to argue over this one. Even the wikipage extensively uses the word insurrection still. This is a super non-issue. In fact, the differing reactions and hard line take on these contemporary political protests is all that matters. I could also point out, but it won't help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict... Elon isn't too late. Seemingly he's ahead of me on this one. I didn't realize how bad it is. I just hope Canada and Mexico stay out of this.

phkahler 5y ago

Yeah, one group of "protestors" can take over a small section of a city, push the authorities out, loot and riot. But another "protest" gets a little out of hand and it's an attempt to overthrow the government. Trump lost, can nobody see that continuing to talk about him is counterproductive? On both sides!

tomrod 5y ago
> Yeah, one group of "protestors" can take over a small section of a city, push the authorities out, loot and riot. If you read my prior comment, you'll note a distinct lack of discussion regarding this unrelated topic. > But another "protest" gets a little out of hand and it's an attempt to overthrow the government. Correct. The mob that actually performed the violent protest may not have come to the Capitol that day to overthrow the government, but the people spurring them on had other designs. Calling for the murder of the government official performing their duty is a key tell for that; to my understanding there is further evidence beyond incendiary and violent rhetoric. But please, let's stay on topic instead of deflecting to the ills of Antifa and her counter-agitators. That conversation just reinforces the backfire effect since the trivial triggering conversation challenges deeply held worldviews.[0] [0] https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe_clean https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe_clean

bavell 5y ago

LOL no sane person thought the country was going to be taken over by some grandmas and goofy morons...

tomrod 5y ago
Correct. But interfering with election proceedings, never mind being encouraged to kill the people charged with finalizing those proceedings, could lend to chaos and give incumbents (who are stocking the chaos) opportunities to seize control -- an effective coup. Don't confuse tools with crafters.
- bavell 5y ago
  I hear you, but as soon as anyone "siezed control" they would be summarily thrown out in the mud and made a laughing stock by the entirety of the nation. Don't let the tiny vocal minority of fools chanting election fraud trick you into thinking regular folks would go along with some half-baked coup attempt - they'd be met with laughter and scorn. I've discussed this at length with friends and family, some of whom have pretty strong political views.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Ah yes, "it could never happen here." But if they're in nominal control of the military, and have 40% of the country expressing a modicum of sympathy, then you let loose a pretty dangerous situation.

vvvzxd 5y ago

>The common narrative is that it was insurrection. how many people from Jan 6 have been charged with insurrection?

tomrod 5y ago
The event was an insurrection. Several have been charged with seditious conspiracy, as your earlier commenters have pointed out. Others have other charges. Here is a quick Google result for your perusal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/all-the-us-capi...