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There are other problems. Currently, the US Federal government cannot hire most competent software engineers at all due to salary/comp caps. The maximum amount

There are other problems. Currently, the US Federal government cannot hire most competent software engineers at all due to salary/comp caps. The maximum amount any federal employee can earn is $170k, with zero equity.

thorin 5y ago
Agreed, but this is largely an American problem. In Europe and where I am in the UK, salary isn't the problem, but there is still a drive to outsource. When I've been a contract developer, I've probably been making more than board members in some countries, but that seemed to be accepted over the short term. There's also an issue where enterprise companies wouldn't trust their IT departments, for historical reasons so the good people left or they got consulting businesses in and that made everything worse...
HWR_14 5y ago
While it's true that the government (obviously) cannot supply equity and is capped at 174k (by law capped at a senators salary), they can try to make it up other ways. Providing free room and board (or funds for the same), paying higher education costs and providing free healthcare. Also, allowing those benefits (and a healthy percentage of your income salary) to continue into retirement. There is also the fact that they have more take home pay then you might expect, because government salaries are exempt from FICA taxes
- iso1210 5y ago
  This site lists 100 federal employees earning 400k+ https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 Even ignoring those searching through different departments shows plenty earning over 174k -- Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (6), Immediate Office of the Secretary of Education (8), Maritime Administration (34), etc. (Of course then there's state employees where PE Teachers get multi-million salaries)
  - pc86 5y ago
    Lots to unpack here. These are all medical officers. I hope I don't need to justify a physician making more than a developer. And if you look at the averages,[0] these folks are still making less than they would in the private sector. What state PE teachers are making multi-million dollar salaries? I hope you're not conflating huge D1 coaching programs with "PE teacher." [0] https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/medical-officer https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/medical-off...
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      A physician only impacts the limited patients they see where a developer can impact millions and a team leader can impact many developers who impact millions. Using common logic we see in the field on why ic should be paid lower than team leaders.
      - Ancapistani 5y ago
        First, "physician" is not equivalent to "practicing doctor in a clinical setting". Second, a good physician - even a run-of-the-mill family doctor - should be collaborating with their peers. They're keeping up to date on new practices and informing the next generation of those practices by reporting observations of the results of today's practices and any anomalies that arise. I don't think it's unreasonable for some developers to make more than most physicians or for most physicians to make more than most developers. Neither field is narrowly defined.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        A typical licensed physician is a run of the mill family doctor or walk-in clinic doctor. I can assure you they are spending however many hours required to keep their license but are not keeping upto date on the latest practices. They are sending people to labs where data is generated that can be used by the next generation but we are not paying lab workers 1/2 a million.
    - iso1210 5y ago
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
  Why exactly can’t the government supply equity, and why is it obvious?
  - pc86 5y ago
    Equity in what
    - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
      The government, of course. More specifically the treasury.
      - Ancapistani 5y ago
        Taking for granted that this would be possible, from an economic and political standpoint, I would consider equity in the US Treasury to be about as potential valuable as equity in a randomly selected tech startup - which is to say, almost certainly worthless.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        I'm trying hard to come up with a response that's not just an insult and dismissal. I have no idea what you're talking about or thinking about. A percentage of tax receipts? Why on earth would that make more sense than just money up front?
        Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
        I don’t know why you feel an urge to be dismissive or insulting about the government issuing securities. Or why some money up front is necessarily better than more money later, which surely is the whole point of equity in the private sector. I’ll grant you that dusty old war bonds are unlikely to get strapping young devs very excited, but I’m sure that they can come up with a higher risk, higher reward financial instrument with some imagination.
        5y ago
cduzz 5y ago
I'd consider a pension to be a pretty reasonable analog to equity.
zeku 5y ago
The entire US isn't Seattle or SF though. They can recruit very good software engineers out of the Southeast & Midwest for under 170k just fine. It's still going to cost them 6 figures, but they are going to be able to hire good talent. I will admit though, they're going to have trouble retaining the tippy top of the seniority ladder at 170k.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  The problem is that “the tippy top of the seniority ladder” are the only ones eligible to earn close to 170k

thorin 5y ago

Agreed, but this is largely an American problem. In Europe and where I am in the UK, salary isn't the problem, but there is still a drive to outsource. When I've been a contract developer, I've probably been making more than board members in some countries, but that seemed to be accepted over the short term. There's also an issue where enterprise companies wouldn't trust their IT departments, for historical reasons so the good people left or they got consulting businesses in and that made everything worse...

HWR_14 5y ago

While it's true that the government (obviously) cannot supply equity and is capped at 174k (by law capped at a senators salary), they can try to make it up other ways. Providing free room and board (or funds for the same), paying higher education costs and providing free healthcare. Also, allowing those benefits (and a healthy percentage of your income salary) to continue into retirement. There is also the fact that they have more take home pay then you might expect, because government salaries are exempt from FICA taxes

iso1210 5y ago
This site lists 100 federal employees earning 400k+ https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100 Even ignoring those searching through different departments shows plenty earning over 174k -- Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (6), Immediate Office of the Secretary of Education (8), Maritime Administration (34), etc. (Of course then there's state employees where PE Teachers get multi-million salaries)
- pc86 5y ago
  Lots to unpack here. These are all medical officers. I hope I don't need to justify a physician making more than a developer. And if you look at the averages,[0] these folks are still making less than they would in the private sector. What state PE teachers are making multi-million dollar salaries? I hope you're not conflating huge D1 coaching programs with "PE teacher." [0] https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/medical-officer https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/medical-off...
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    A physician only impacts the limited patients they see where a developer can impact millions and a team leader can impact many developers who impact millions. Using common logic we see in the field on why ic should be paid lower than team leaders.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      First, "physician" is not equivalent to "practicing doctor in a clinical setting". Second, a good physician - even a run-of-the-mill family doctor - should be collaborating with their peers. They're keeping up to date on new practices and informing the next generation of those practices by reporting observations of the results of today's practices and any anomalies that arise. I don't think it's unreasonable for some developers to make more than most physicians or for most physicians to make more than most developers. Neither field is narrowly defined.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        A typical licensed physician is a run of the mill family doctor or walk-in clinic doctor. I can assure you they are spending however many hours required to keep their license but are not keeping upto date on the latest practices. They are sending people to labs where data is generated that can be used by the next generation but we are not paying lab workers 1/2 a million.
  - iso1210 5y ago
Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
Why exactly can’t the government supply equity, and why is it obvious?
- pc86 5y ago
  Equity in what
  - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
    The government, of course. More specifically the treasury.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      Taking for granted that this would be possible, from an economic and political standpoint, I would consider equity in the US Treasury to be about as potential valuable as equity in a randomly selected tech startup - which is to say, almost certainly worthless.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I'm trying hard to come up with a response that's not just an insult and dismissal. I have no idea what you're talking about or thinking about. A percentage of tax receipts? Why on earth would that make more sense than just money up front?
      - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
        I don’t know why you feel an urge to be dismissive or insulting about the government issuing securities. Or why some money up front is necessarily better than more money later, which surely is the whole point of equity in the private sector. I’ll grant you that dusty old war bonds are unlikely to get strapping young devs very excited, but I’m sure that they can come up with a higher risk, higher reward financial instrument with some imagination.
        5y ago

cduzz 5y ago

I'd consider a pension to be a pretty reasonable analog to equity.

zeku 5y ago

The entire US isn't Seattle or SF though. They can recruit very good software engineers out of the Southeast & Midwest for under 170k just fine. It's still going to cost them 6 figures, but they are going to be able to hire good talent. I will admit though, they're going to have trouble retaining the tippy top of the seniority ladder at 170k.

seoaeu 5y ago
The problem is that “the tippy top of the seniority ladder” are the only ones eligible to earn close to 170k