5 ms·

More and more our illusion of free will continues its degradation.

by cercatrova 5y ago

Maursault 5y ago
Free will is unmistakably real. Control is an illusion.
- cercatrova 5y ago
  How is free will "unmistakably real?"
  - fsloth 5y ago
    The parent comment felt true to me. While not author of the parent comment I would like to explain why and how it feels true. I've suffered clinical depression so am quite familiar with strong mood swings. It's never been bad enough that I would be hospitalized or anything. But some of the moods have been really bad. Had I followed my worst "gut feels" I would likley be alchoholic, divorced, unemployed and homeless. So I have parts of me sending these literally gut wrenching emotions that direct me to lash out, do stupid things - anything for the make the immediate psychic pain to stop. And at that point I have the option to either follow these feelings, or say no. I will do this other thing instead which I really hate doing right now but I know will make me feel better in a while. I would characterize this as an example of free will in action. I cannot control these emotions. But I can choose how to react to them. And I can choose behaviours that lead to better outcomes (exercise, sleep, etc) even though I don't find them emotionally rewarding (except after the fact when I notice a better mood, being happier in my body). The higher control is of course still some statistical or deterministic outcome of my current neurological state. But I am 100% I am at least not directly driven by my strongest gut feelings as far as I perceive them.
    - turtleyacht 5y ago
      Non-Violent Communication (NVC) also emphasizes control over reactions [0]. It's still hard to do. I have to think in language instead of reflex. And it doesn't always work--or I refuse to let it work--in other contexts. Still a work in progress, I guess. [0] Sears, Melanie. Humanizing Health Care. 1st, PuddleDancer Press, 2010.
    - standyro 5y ago
      I’m proud of you! I have trouble following and sometimes following my gut too closely. I think there’s a reason “follow your gut” is a cliche in our nomenclature. There’s something there!
      - fsloth 5y ago
        Sometimes intuition works much better than analytic thought. It hits you first something feels right - or wrong - and only later you are able to give some reason to this feeling. If you can, that is. Mood swings are really nasty in the sense they degrade ones trust in the negative "gut feelings" which generally may give beneficial signals.
    - newusertoday 5y ago
      I have a question for you. When you are in bad mood does it go away with distraction? i.e. say some loud boom happened and you are distracted to see what happened and forgot about "bad mood" and after some time it comes back or is it like physical pain where its persistent and distraction won't do anything to it?
- npteljes 5y ago
  I'm thinking kind of the opposite. I think control is real, and most definitely can be trained. And free will is something that can be an aspiration, but definitely out of reach for most, sort of like enlightenment or nirvana.
- qwerty456127 5y ago
  > Control is an illusion. I would say it isn't because you certainly can change the degree of it. One can develop ability and habit to observe and control their mood and behaviour in some significant extent. A thing has to exist to be changeable.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  Unlike consciousness, I've not seen any compelling argument or experiment demonstrating that we actually have free will. Are you aware of any that I'm missing?
andrei_says_ 5y ago
I recommend hanging out with Wayne - Advaita.org
koonsolo 5y ago
Depends on which "creature" you consider has free will. I think it confirms a sci-fi theory that I have: if you want to "upload" a human to a computer, it's not enough to copy the brain. You basically have to copy and simulate the whole body.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  No creature has "free will" Simulating the entire organism would likely predict behaviors but would not qualify as an "upload" as the original copy still exists in reality. There is no transfer of awareness
- delecti 5y ago
  If you're curious to read more, there's a completely non-sci-fi name for that theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
- jrootabega 5y ago
  This is the big reveal of the Keanu Reeves/Thomas Middleditch (no, that's really the cast) movie "Replicas". I am deliberately spoiling it to save anyone else the pain of watching it. My best-case scenario is that the movie does not exist, and my memories of watching it are simply my brain's dying hallucinations, patching together memories of The Matrix, Johnny Mnemonic When I Was 13, and Silicon Valley Seasons 1-3.
  - frumper 5y ago
    I think I've started watching this movie a few times only to realize not very far into the film that it was so bad I blocked out the memory of watching it.
- namlem 5y ago
  Or at least the peripheral nervous system.
- jamiek88 5y ago
  There are many neurons in our stomachs. So not a crazy thought.
RunawayGalaxy 5y ago
Free will is still a useful abstraction

More and more our illusion of free will continues its degradation.

Maursault 5y ago

Free will is unmistakably real. Control is an illusion.

cercatrova 5y ago
How is free will "unmistakably real?"
- fsloth 5y ago
  The parent comment felt true to me. While not author of the parent comment I would like to explain why and how it feels true. I've suffered clinical depression so am quite familiar with strong mood swings. It's never been bad enough that I would be hospitalized or anything. But some of the moods have been really bad. Had I followed my worst "gut feels" I would likley be alchoholic, divorced, unemployed and homeless. So I have parts of me sending these literally gut wrenching emotions that direct me to lash out, do stupid things - anything for the make the immediate psychic pain to stop. And at that point I have the option to either follow these feelings, or say no. I will do this other thing instead which I really hate doing right now but I know will make me feel better in a while. I would characterize this as an example of free will in action. I cannot control these emotions. But I can choose how to react to them. And I can choose behaviours that lead to better outcomes (exercise, sleep, etc) even though I don't find them emotionally rewarding (except after the fact when I notice a better mood, being happier in my body). The higher control is of course still some statistical or deterministic outcome of my current neurological state. But I am 100% I am at least not directly driven by my strongest gut feelings as far as I perceive them.
  - turtleyacht 5y ago
    Non-Violent Communication (NVC) also emphasizes control over reactions [0]. It's still hard to do. I have to think in language instead of reflex. And it doesn't always work--or I refuse to let it work--in other contexts. Still a work in progress, I guess. [0] Sears, Melanie. Humanizing Health Care. 1st, PuddleDancer Press, 2010.
  - standyro 5y ago
    I’m proud of you! I have trouble following and sometimes following my gut too closely. I think there’s a reason “follow your gut” is a cliche in our nomenclature. There’s something there!
    - fsloth 5y ago
      Sometimes intuition works much better than analytic thought. It hits you first something feels right - or wrong - and only later you are able to give some reason to this feeling. If you can, that is. Mood swings are really nasty in the sense they degrade ones trust in the negative "gut feelings" which generally may give beneficial signals.
  - newusertoday 5y ago
    I have a question for you. When you are in bad mood does it go away with distraction? i.e. say some loud boom happened and you are distracted to see what happened and forgot about "bad mood" and after some time it comes back or is it like physical pain where its persistent and distraction won't do anything to it?
npteljes 5y ago
I'm thinking kind of the opposite. I think control is real, and most definitely can be trained. And free will is something that can be an aspiration, but definitely out of reach for most, sort of like enlightenment or nirvana.
qwerty456127 5y ago
> Control is an illusion. I would say it isn't because you certainly can change the degree of it. One can develop ability and habit to observe and control their mood and behaviour in some significant extent. A thing has to exist to be changeable.
gilbetron 5y ago
Unlike consciousness, I've not seen any compelling argument or experiment demonstrating that we actually have free will. Are you aware of any that I'm missing?

andrei_says_ 5y ago

I recommend hanging out with Wayne - Advaita.org

koonsolo 5y ago

Depends on which "creature" you consider has free will. I think it confirms a sci-fi theory that I have: if you want to "upload" a human to a computer, it's not enough to copy the brain. You basically have to copy and simulate the whole body.

netizen-936824 5y ago
No creature has "free will" Simulating the entire organism would likely predict behaviors but would not qualify as an "upload" as the original copy still exists in reality. There is no transfer of awareness
delecti 5y ago
If you're curious to read more, there's a completely non-sci-fi name for that theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
jrootabega 5y ago
This is the big reveal of the Keanu Reeves/Thomas Middleditch (no, that's really the cast) movie "Replicas". I am deliberately spoiling it to save anyone else the pain of watching it. My best-case scenario is that the movie does not exist, and my memories of watching it are simply my brain's dying hallucinations, patching together memories of The Matrix, Johnny Mnemonic When I Was 13, and Silicon Valley Seasons 1-3.
- frumper 5y ago
  I think I've started watching this movie a few times only to realize not very far into the film that it was so bad I blocked out the memory of watching it.
namlem 5y ago
Or at least the peripheral nervous system.
jamiek88 5y ago
There are many neurons in our stomachs. So not a crazy thought.

RunawayGalaxy 5y ago

Free will is still a useful abstraction