3 ms·

This first year PayPal went live they gave away funds to bootstrap. And then they had to deal with bandits who would make lots of accounts to try to scam. And t

This first year PayPal went live they gave away funds to bootstrap. And then they had to deal with bandits who would make lots of accounts to try to scam. And there were security events. It was not a flawless launch. We look back now and say wow yeah a payment provider that allows international commerce between banks and cards and vendors and buyers in a “safe” way, no doubt that will be huge one day. Meanwhile, it seems that history rhymes and similar things are afoot in ES. While the rollout was not flawless, I have seen just as many positive stories as David’s negative reporting (I don’t believe David has said anything good about the rollout, yet there are many stories). I suggest David visits for himself in 2023 and see how it’s going.

davidgerard 5y ago
I have been advised by my Salvadoran contacts that it would probably be a bad idea for me to visit in person before Bukele/Nuevas Ideas is out of power. It turns out rule of law is not in the greatest state in El Salvador at present; this may or may not go so far as fucking with the tourists, but is more likely with known pains in their backside. This will present some difficulties for the planned book, but none that are insuperable. Technology success stories only rhyme if you carefully ignore the failures. I look forward to you enumerating all the fraud-riddled payment systems from that era that didn't make it.
theamk 5y ago
Care to share any positive stores? Looking at HN, all the negative are full of interesting details and specific facts (like this one: delayed bitcoin bonds, Chivo theft) While the positive ones are few and lack details. Take this one for example, a first positive article in HN search by date: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30395176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30395176 . "You can use it everywhere" (presidential mandates do that), "it gives anyone who downloads it $30 ... a third of the country has used it" (two-thirds of the country could not figure it out?).. and that's it. Where are all the success stories? Can you share the links?
- davidgerard 5y ago
  Salvadorans don't even dislike bitcoin itself, for the most part. A few have concerns with money laundering in a country riddled with drug gangs, the CO2 production and so on - but the main objections are (1) this was forced on people (2) Chivo is unreliable rubbish. This is a great series of posts from Bitcoin Italia, a very pro-bitcoin podcast. They tried to do a holiday in El Salvador entirely on bitcoin. They proclaim it a huge success, while I read it and see a huge amount of optimism for a system that barely works and is barely supported: https://bitcoinitaliapodcast.it/missione-el-salvador https://bitcoinitaliapodcast.it/missione-el-salvador But if you want a positive report, that's the one to read through. It turns out you can't use bitcoin everywhere - you have to find the one shop in a town where it's accepted, then they have to find the one guy who knows how it works. Often a shop sets up one of the non-subsidised wallets (typically Bitcoin Beach or Muun) and you wait 10 minutes for your transaction to be confirmed on the base chain, because the shop hasn't figured out the Lightning bit. Or Lightning in or out of Chivo just doesn't work (which is deliberate, because Chivo throttle it). Or you see an "Aceptamos Bitcoin" sign, and it just means the shop has Chivo but only know how to use it with dollars. Quite a bit of Bitcoin Italia's "bitcoin" use turned out to involve buying gift cards via Bitrefill - that is, they cashed out bitcoins into dollars, which Bitrefill then used to buy the gift cards. They did withdraw dollars for bitcoins from a Chivo ATM later to see how the machines work. They discovered that if you deposit bitcoins, then you can get dollar bills out immediately - for an on-chain transaction with zero confirmations, before it's hit the blockchain. A replace-by-fee transaction with a higher fee could override that unconfirmed transaction - giving you free money, for only the cost of the replace-by-fee transaction. Chivo seems to me a huge wasted opportunity. There are private payment networks, but this was government supported. A good and reliable official electronic payment network could have been really useful for the local economy. But trust is the hardest thing for a payment network to build, and the easiest to lose.

davidgerard 5y ago

I have been advised by my Salvadoran contacts that it would probably be a bad idea for me to visit in person before Bukele/Nuevas Ideas is out of power. It turns out rule of law is not in the greatest state in El Salvador at present; this may or may not go so far as fucking with the tourists, but is more likely with known pains in their backside. This will present some difficulties for the planned book, but none that are insuperable. Technology success stories only rhyme if you carefully ignore the failures. I look forward to you enumerating all the fraud-riddled payment systems from that era that didn't make it.

theamk 5y ago

Care to share any positive stores? Looking at HN, all the negative are full of interesting details and specific facts (like this one: delayed bitcoin bonds, Chivo theft) While the positive ones are few and lack details. Take this one for example, a first positive article in HN search by date: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30395176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30395176 . "You can use it everywhere" (presidential mandates do that), "it gives anyone who downloads it $30 ... a third of the country has used it" (two-thirds of the country could not figure it out?).. and that's it. Where are all the success stories? Can you share the links?

davidgerard 5y ago
Salvadorans don't even dislike bitcoin itself, for the most part. A few have concerns with money laundering in a country riddled with drug gangs, the CO2 production and so on - but the main objections are (1) this was forced on people (2) Chivo is unreliable rubbish. This is a great series of posts from Bitcoin Italia, a very pro-bitcoin podcast. They tried to do a holiday in El Salvador entirely on bitcoin. They proclaim it a huge success, while I read it and see a huge amount of optimism for a system that barely works and is barely supported: https://bitcoinitaliapodcast.it/missione-el-salvador https://bitcoinitaliapodcast.it/missione-el-salvador But if you want a positive report, that's the one to read through. It turns out you can't use bitcoin everywhere - you have to find the one shop in a town where it's accepted, then they have to find the one guy who knows how it works. Often a shop sets up one of the non-subsidised wallets (typically Bitcoin Beach or Muun) and you wait 10 minutes for your transaction to be confirmed on the base chain, because the shop hasn't figured out the Lightning bit. Or Lightning in or out of Chivo just doesn't work (which is deliberate, because Chivo throttle it). Or you see an "Aceptamos Bitcoin" sign, and it just means the shop has Chivo but only know how to use it with dollars. Quite a bit of Bitcoin Italia's "bitcoin" use turned out to involve buying gift cards via Bitrefill - that is, they cashed out bitcoins into dollars, which Bitrefill then used to buy the gift cards. They did withdraw dollars for bitcoins from a Chivo ATM later to see how the machines work. They discovered that if you deposit bitcoins, then you can get dollar bills out immediately - for an on-chain transaction with zero confirmations, before it's hit the blockchain. A replace-by-fee transaction with a higher fee could override that unconfirmed transaction - giving you free money, for only the cost of the replace-by-fee transaction. Chivo seems to me a huge wasted opportunity. There are private payment networks, but this was government supported. A good and reliable official electronic payment network could have been really useful for the local economy. But trust is the hardest thing for a payment network to build, and the easiest to lose.