3 ms·

The only reason that income tax is the primary source of revenue is because of the cap on payroll taxes that allows the rich to avoid paying as much as the midd

by greedo 5y ago

The only reason that income tax is the primary source of revenue is because of the cap on payroll taxes that allows the rich to avoid paying as much as the middle class.

ch4s3 5y ago
Payroll tax is basically just secondary income tax. Other OECD nations don’t really do that, it’s an artifact of our wacky welfare system.
- greedo 5y ago
  It primarily funds Social Security. How is that part of "our wacky welfare system?" If you consider it a secondary income tax, then it really shows how regressive our tax system is since the rich don't pay the same rate.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    It’s a tiny portion of federal revenue, which as pointed out and cited is predominantly funded by income tax. It also doesn’t straightforwardly find Social Security. It funds a portion of pay outs to current recipients, something like ~90%, with the rest coming from general funds. That portion is decreasing as demographics shift. It’s sort of a weird cash transfer program that’s presented as some sort of lock box. We could lift the cap to make SS more solvent past the 2040s, but it would still be a small portion of federal revenue compared to income tax which is highly progressive. I don’t understand how you’re even arguing that income tax isn’t highly progressive here, every tax expert and economist disagrees with you. It’s just basic accounting. Most federal revenue is from income tax and most of it comes from the top quintile of income earners.
    - greedo 5y ago
      "tiny portion of federal revenue?" It's 36% of all Federal revenue. It used to constitute almost 80% of Federal revenue in the 40's/50's, but the cap has made its contributions drop. https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/PolicyBasics_WhereDoFederalTaxRevsComeFrom_08-20-12.pdf https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/PolicyB... The Federal income tax is progressive, but only if you ignore that the payroll taxes are highly regressive income taxes. When you look at them as a whole, it's readily apparent that the overall Federal income tax system is regressive.
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        You're reading that chart incorrectly, it was like 5% in the 40s and 50s not 80%. I meant historically tiny, and should have been clear, though it is larger now. Yes, payroll tax is regressive, but only 6.2% and the cap rises every year. > it's readily apparent that the overall Federal income tax system is regressive It clearly is not, as 57% Americans paid no income tax last year (up from ~47%), and 19% (up from 17%) paid neither income tax nor payroll tax. So somewhere in the neighborhood of 38% of Americans paid payroll tax but not income tax meaning their federal tax burden was quite low. If you roll in the payroll tax the effective federal rates are still quite progressive[1]. Even Piketty and Saez note that the tax system when everything is accounted for is still progressive in the US[2] and they're accounting for wealth accumulation and not just income. If you want to include things like Piketty and Saez, you should probably include transfers, entitlements, and welfare, which makes the system look even more progressive in total. There's a good wikipedia article on the topic [3]. I'm not sure how you can argue against the conclusions of the CBO, Saez and Piketty who are the most prominent socialist economists in the world right now, and the Brookings Institute. Basically everyone who studies the topic disagrees with you, including people who greatly disagree with one another. [1] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/are-federal-taxes-progressive https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/are-federal-ta... [2] https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezJEP07taxprog.pdf https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezJEP07taxprog.pdf [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivity_in_United_States_income_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivity_in_United_States...

by greedo 5y ago

The only reason that income tax is the primary source of revenue is because of the cap on payroll taxes that allows the rich to avoid paying as much as the middle class.

ch4s3 5y ago

Payroll tax is basically just secondary income tax. Other OECD nations don’t really do that, it’s an artifact of our wacky welfare system.

greedo 5y ago
It primarily funds Social Security. How is that part of "our wacky welfare system?" If you consider it a secondary income tax, then it really shows how regressive our tax system is since the rich don't pay the same rate.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  It’s a tiny portion of federal revenue, which as pointed out and cited is predominantly funded by income tax. It also doesn’t straightforwardly find Social Security. It funds a portion of pay outs to current recipients, something like ~90%, with the rest coming from general funds. That portion is decreasing as demographics shift. It’s sort of a weird cash transfer program that’s presented as some sort of lock box. We could lift the cap to make SS more solvent past the 2040s, but it would still be a small portion of federal revenue compared to income tax which is highly progressive. I don’t understand how you’re even arguing that income tax isn’t highly progressive here, every tax expert and economist disagrees with you. It’s just basic accounting. Most federal revenue is from income tax and most of it comes from the top quintile of income earners.
  - greedo 5y ago
    "tiny portion of federal revenue?" It's 36% of all Federal revenue. It used to constitute almost 80% of Federal revenue in the 40's/50's, but the cap has made its contributions drop. https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/PolicyBasics_WhereDoFederalTaxRevsComeFrom_08-20-12.pdf https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/PolicyB... The Federal income tax is progressive, but only if you ignore that the payroll taxes are highly regressive income taxes. When you look at them as a whole, it's readily apparent that the overall Federal income tax system is regressive.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      You're reading that chart incorrectly, it was like 5% in the 40s and 50s not 80%. I meant historically tiny, and should have been clear, though it is larger now. Yes, payroll tax is regressive, but only 6.2% and the cap rises every year. > it's readily apparent that the overall Federal income tax system is regressive It clearly is not, as 57% Americans paid no income tax last year (up from ~47%), and 19% (up from 17%) paid neither income tax nor payroll tax. So somewhere in the neighborhood of 38% of Americans paid payroll tax but not income tax meaning their federal tax burden was quite low. If you roll in the payroll tax the effective federal rates are still quite progressive[1]. Even Piketty and Saez note that the tax system when everything is accounted for is still progressive in the US[2] and they're accounting for wealth accumulation and not just income. If you want to include things like Piketty and Saez, you should probably include transfers, entitlements, and welfare, which makes the system look even more progressive in total. There's a good wikipedia article on the topic [3]. I'm not sure how you can argue against the conclusions of the CBO, Saez and Piketty who are the most prominent socialist economists in the world right now, and the Brookings Institute. Basically everyone who studies the topic disagrees with you, including people who greatly disagree with one another. [1] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/are-federal-taxes-progressive https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/are-federal-ta... [2] https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezJEP07taxprog.pdf https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezJEP07taxprog.pdf [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivity_in_United_States_income_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivity_in_United_States...