5 ms·

It's honestly insane how PG&E is going bankrupt despite charging 35 cents/kWh. Where is all the money going??

by ceeplusplus 4y ago

not2b 4y ago
Paying damages from all the wildfires they have caused.
Trias11 4y ago
bryan0 4y ago
one place: > PG&E Corp. put a cost estimate of more than $25 billion Thursday on its effort to plant thousands of miles of power lines underground in an effort to tamp down wildfire risks. https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article258249655.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article25824965...
- jimbob45 4y ago
  Shame that they're not getting better publicity as a result of this. Our main complaint about the internet companies is that they pocket the money meant to speed up networks for their subscribers. This is exactly what utility companies ought to do to prepare for the future.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    They’re doing it because they went bankrupt over $30B in liability from not preparing in this fashion. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/business/energy-environment/pge-bankruptcy-ends.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/business/energy-environme... > PG&E sought bankruptcy protection in January 2019 after accumulating an estimated $30 billion in liability for fires started by its poorly maintained equipment. One of the blazes, the 2018 Camp Fire, killed scores of people and destroyed the town of Paradise. It wasn’t voluntary, really.
    - bcrosby95 4y ago
      A large part of why they're doing it because they're guaranteed a certain percentage return on investments. There's ways to fix this problem without a $25bil investment, but you won't make nearly as much profit on that.
      - bryan0 4y ago
        what's a better, cheaper way to fix the wildfire problem?
        sagarm 4y ago
        People who choose to live in the Wildlands urban interface should bear the cost for undergrounding the wires they rely on IMO. Probably politically infeasible, unfortunately.
        dntrkv 4y ago
        Wildfires in California not only affect California itself, but neighboring states as well. Last year I drove from CA to CO. The wildfire smoke from California covered all of Nevada and Utah. I don't know where you live, but if you are in CA, there is a very high chance that you live in a wildland-urban interface zone. About 45% of housing in CA would fall under this category. These risks aren't limited to people living up in the mountains. A large chunk of the Bay Area is a wildland-urban interface. All of this to say, preventing wild fires is in everybody's best interest and trying to pass the costs to one group or another will only delay our timeline to address these issues. Burying power lines is just one part of the solution.
        coryrc 4y ago
        We don't have a wildfire problem. There have been fires for thousands of years. There are supposed to be fires. Our problem is people build non-fireproof homes in forests and demand the government mismanage the forest by stopping fires.
        4y ago
NelsonMinar 4y ago
$0.35 would be a bargain. It's more like $0.40 / kWh, it's complicated depending on which rate plan you have and what time of day / year you're using power. https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-rates-work/Residential-Rates-Plan-Pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra... Meanwhile my neighbors 30 miles away are paying half that rate to SMUD. https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Compare-rates https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Compare-rates As a bonus, SMUD doesn't generally kill people and burn down cities.
- sagarm 4y ago
  Presumably the Sacramento utility district doesn't serve high risk fire areas, so their customers don't have to subsidize people that choose to live on the wildlands-urban interface.
  - simfree 4y ago
    They also have never had to pay out dividends unlike PG&E, or been forced to optimize for what will deliver the most value to their shareholders. https://www.pgecorp.com/investors/shareholders/dividend_history.shtml https://www.pgecorp.com/investors/shareholders/dividend_hist...
  - samtho 4y ago
    SMUD does operate HV lines into the Sierras as part of the Upper American River Project consisting of 11 dams and eight power generating facilities. It’s capable of powering most of Sacramento in a pinch but is typically used only when they need more capacity. Throughout the course of a year, it ends up providing about 20% of Sacramento’s power. SMUD has very strict preventative maintenance procedures for their HV transmission lines, clearing all underbrush from below the 15KV lines almost yearly. We have not had any major incidents involving electrical fires in my lifetime that I am aware of.
outworlder 4y ago
It's incredible. Even more so if we consider that Silicon Valley Power (serving Santa Clara) charges a fraction of that and is more reliable.
- bink 4y ago
  Seems unfair to compare a utility covering 18 square miles to one covering 160k+ square miles across some of the harshest terrain in the country. But I agree that PG&E charges way too much.

It's honestly insane how PG&E is going bankrupt despite charging 35 cents/kWh. Where is all the money going??

not2b 4y ago

Paying damages from all the wildfires they have caused.

Trias11 4y ago

bryan0 4y ago

one place: > PG&E Corp. put a cost estimate of more than $25 billion Thursday on its effort to plant thousands of miles of power lines underground in an effort to tamp down wildfire risks. https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article258249655.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article25824965...

jimbob45 4y ago
Shame that they're not getting better publicity as a result of this. Our main complaint about the internet companies is that they pocket the money meant to speed up networks for their subscribers. This is exactly what utility companies ought to do to prepare for the future.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  They’re doing it because they went bankrupt over $30B in liability from not preparing in this fashion. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/business/energy-environment/pge-bankruptcy-ends.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/business/energy-environme... > PG&E sought bankruptcy protection in January 2019 after accumulating an estimated $30 billion in liability for fires started by its poorly maintained equipment. One of the blazes, the 2018 Camp Fire, killed scores of people and destroyed the town of Paradise. It wasn’t voluntary, really.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    A large part of why they're doing it because they're guaranteed a certain percentage return on investments. There's ways to fix this problem without a $25bil investment, but you won't make nearly as much profit on that.
    - bryan0 4y ago
      what's a better, cheaper way to fix the wildfire problem?
      - sagarm 4y ago
        People who choose to live in the Wildlands urban interface should bear the cost for undergrounding the wires they rely on IMO. Probably politically infeasible, unfortunately.
        dntrkv 4y ago
        Wildfires in California not only affect California itself, but neighboring states as well. Last year I drove from CA to CO. The wildfire smoke from California covered all of Nevada and Utah. I don't know where you live, but if you are in CA, there is a very high chance that you live in a wildland-urban interface zone. About 45% of housing in CA would fall under this category. These risks aren't limited to people living up in the mountains. A large chunk of the Bay Area is a wildland-urban interface. All of this to say, preventing wild fires is in everybody's best interest and trying to pass the costs to one group or another will only delay our timeline to address these issues. Burying power lines is just one part of the solution.
      - coryrc 4y ago
        We don't have a wildfire problem. There have been fires for thousands of years. There are supposed to be fires. Our problem is people build non-fireproof homes in forests and demand the government mismanage the forest by stopping fires.
        4y ago

NelsonMinar 4y ago

$0.35 would be a bargain. It's more like $0.40 / kWh, it's complicated depending on which rate plan you have and what time of day / year you're using power. https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-rates-work/Residential-Rates-Plan-Pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra... Meanwhile my neighbors 30 miles away are paying half that rate to SMUD. https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Compare-rates https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Compare-rates As a bonus, SMUD doesn't generally kill people and burn down cities.

sagarm 4y ago
Presumably the Sacramento utility district doesn't serve high risk fire areas, so their customers don't have to subsidize people that choose to live on the wildlands-urban interface.
- simfree 4y ago
  They also have never had to pay out dividends unlike PG&E, or been forced to optimize for what will deliver the most value to their shareholders. https://www.pgecorp.com/investors/shareholders/dividend_history.shtml https://www.pgecorp.com/investors/shareholders/dividend_hist...
- samtho 4y ago
  SMUD does operate HV lines into the Sierras as part of the Upper American River Project consisting of 11 dams and eight power generating facilities. It’s capable of powering most of Sacramento in a pinch but is typically used only when they need more capacity. Throughout the course of a year, it ends up providing about 20% of Sacramento’s power. SMUD has very strict preventative maintenance procedures for their HV transmission lines, clearing all underbrush from below the 15KV lines almost yearly. We have not had any major incidents involving electrical fires in my lifetime that I am aware of.

outworlder 4y ago

It's incredible. Even more so if we consider that Silicon Valley Power (serving Santa Clara) charges a fraction of that and is more reliable.

bink 4y ago
Seems unfair to compare a utility covering 18 square miles to one covering 160k+ square miles across some of the harshest terrain in the country. But I agree that PG&E charges way too much.