3 ms·

> There is nothing in Genesis that is at variance with known science This is so absurd a claim I don't know where to begin. But how about the claim that the sk

by goto11 5y ago

> There is nothing in Genesis that is at variance with known science This is so absurd a claim I don't know where to begin. But how about the claim that the sky is a vault which separate the waters above from the waters below? The sky is not actually a vault with water above it, at least according to science. Or how about the claim that the sun and moon and stars was created after plants and trees were created?

prmph 5y ago
Apparently before the flood there was massive amounts of water suspended high up in the atmosphere (but not falling as rain, hence disbelief of Noah's contemporaries about a coming flood). There was also water stored in rivers, lakes, oceans, and (ice?) on the surface of the earth. Most of the water in the atmosphere is what fell in the flood, causing some changes to the crust on the earth, and initiating the water cycle as we know it today. But you don't even have to accept this sequence of events. Even now we have large amounts of water suspended in the atmosphere (as clouds) and large amounts on the earth's surface (as described above). I'm not sure what is inaccurate about the description of this general state of affairs in Genesis.
- munk-a 5y ago
  The definition of water written about in the bible could not include water vapor suspended in air because that concept was unknown to the authors and not among the major contemporary theories of matter. It is strange to use modern understandings to justify historical statements made without those modern understandings.
  - prmph 5y ago
    Isn't that a circular argument? My implicit claim is that the information in Genesis is coming from a superior source who would know, but you are saying that Genesis cannot be accurate because those who wrote it could not know what was scientifically accurate. The writers of the Bible books generally claimed that the information they wrote down was inspired.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      I think that's a logical trap - it implies that the contents of the bible are a direct transcription from a being with superior (or, in it's word, perfect) knowledge. If that's the case then mortal interpretation of the bible can understood to have been historically flawed until... well, until when? Can we understand it in a truthful manner now or are we still too imperfect beings to comprehend its actual truth? And, if we're failing to understand it properly are we doing so for good or ill - we know that some of the previous flawed interpretations were pretty awful. Declaring crusades and wars in the name of the Bible is an abhorrent interpretation to most modern christians - so how are we to know how correct our interpretations are?
    - goto11 5y ago
      Pretty badly inspired then, if they thought plants and trees were created before the sun and stars. Just goes to show that people and books which claim to be divinely inspired tend not to be very reliable.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    I don't think believers of the Bible claim that the Creation account in Genesis was written by a human who watched the events unfold, and who understood it enough to write an account based on their own understanding. Instead, it is claimed to be a divine revelation, given by God to explain (using language and ideas that would be most useful to most people) the important truths about the Creation process and Man's place within it.
    - f154hfds 5y ago
      As a Christian and a believer in the Bible I can attest that I see it exactly in the way you describe. The factual parts of the narrative / poem for the rest of the Bible as I see it are: 1. God is the architect of the universe 2. God is eternal and has no beginning 3. There was probably a historical Adam and Eve. The rest is extremely important for the philosophical basis of: 1. sinfulness of humanity 2. dignity of humanity (image of God) 3. the problem that justice can't be both restorative and retributive 4. inkling toward a solution to 3. (forgiveness/sacrifice/charity) And much more... it's a deep text.
- ChrisKnott 5y ago
  Did the moon exist before trees?
- goto11 5y ago
  > I'm not sure what is inaccurate about the description of this general state of affairs in Genesis. So how about God creating the sun, moon, and stars after creating plants and trees?
dane-pgp 5y ago
> But how about the claim that the sky is a vault which separate the waters above from the waters below? I don't think claims about vaults of water should be read as an architectural blueprint or an Ikea furniture assembly instruction booklet. There is a three dimensional region of the atmosphere which is above sea level and below the level at which clouds (floating bodies of water) can form. It's perfectly reasonable to poetically call that region a vault that separates the waters above from the waters below. > Or how about the claim that the sun and moon and stars was created after plants and trees were created? That's a great point, actually, although note that the narrative starts with the creation of "light" and the day-night cycle, before the creation of the trees and plants. Therefore one interpretation of the fourth day narrative is that it describes the sky becoming clearer so that these individual bodies can be seen. I think there is still some speculation among scientists about what the atmosphere of the early Earth was like, but it seems that it was greatly influenced by volcanism, and there was a thick haze of hydrocarbons for a large period of its history. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016703707002475 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00167... https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21598-haze-clears-on-ancient-earths-early-atmosphere/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21598-haze-clears-on-...
- goto11 5y ago
  > Therefore one interpretation of the fourth day narrative is that it describes the sky becoming clearer so that these individual bodies can be seen. It is not an interpretation which is justified by the text, but sure - you can interpret any text any way you want. But you are basically just writing your own text then.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    Like I say, the text states that there is light and the day-night cycle before the sun, moon, and stars are created; so the text does not allow for a simplistic interpretation of the individual words in isolation. You could conclude that there is no logically consistent interpretation possible, and if your prior is that the narrative can't be correct then I suppose that's an appealing conclusion, but I think it is just as reasonable to say that the text is describing (at least poetically) the subjective experience of a nominal observer on the surface of the Earth as it is being formed.
xaedes 5y ago
The sky being a vault, or dome or touchable FIRMament, like "terrible crystal" (Ezekiel 1:22), separating the waters from the waters. I think it relates to the common Sky on Earth and Sky Earth Separation theme in myths from on around the world. Often people/ancestors/heroes/gods seem to have lived in a hollow between Sky Father and Earth Mother. Later in time both always get separated. Now for the interpretation - What is Sky Father? Is it the sky as we know it? We can't touch it, so probably not. Suppose it actually is something touchable, that looks like "terrible crystal", maybe even looks like the sky that we know. Something where people could take shelter in like in a vault, or cave. I think the Sky Father is some kind of (ice age?) glacier and the hollow between Sky and Earth is a glacial cave. Ice is a terrible cold crystal, firm, touchable, looks like the sky. Ice caves exist, but they dont provide a great home, but they separate the waters above from the waters below. There is always something to find with subterranean water in mythology.. Now if there is a geothermal spring below a glacier or chunk of ice, it could form a survivable space, that ticks all the marks. Many myths from all around the world share those elements to some degree, but I will here point only at one particular example, from - least expected - the Māori, that I find especially interesting, because of its mentioning of "extreme cold". https://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/lww/lww3.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/lww/lww3.htm Some excerpts (my comments marked with > at line begin): The Rangi-nui [great sky], which stands above, felt a desire towards Papa-tua-nuku [the earth], whose belly was turned up [towards him]; he desired her as a wife. So Rangi came down to Papa. In that period the amount of light was nil; absolute and complete darkness [po-kutikuti kakarauri] prevailed; there was no sun, no moon, no stars, no clouds, no light, no mist—no ripples stirred the surface of ocean; no breath of air, a complete and absolute stillness. And so Rangi-nui dwelt with Papa-tua-nuku as his wife; and then he set [hikaia = whakato, to set, plant] plants to cover the nakedness of Papa; for her armpits, her head, and the body; and after that the smaller trees to clothe them both, for the body of the earth was naked. Subsequently he placed the upstanding trees of the forest, and now Papa felt a great warmth, which was all-embracing. > and some more. Because Rangi-nui overlaid and completely covered Papa-tua-nuku, the growth of all things could not mature, nor could anything bear fruit [or increase]; they were in an unstable condition, floating about the Ao-pouri [the world of darkness], and this was their appearance: some were crawling [after the manner of lizards], some were upright with the arms held up, some were lying with the knees partly drawn p. 118 up, some lying on their sides, some were lying stretched out at full length, some on their backs, some were stooping, some with their heads bent down, some with their legs drawn up, some embracing, some kicking out with legs and arms, some kneeling, some standing, some inhaling deep breaths, some with exhausted breath, some crawling, some walking, some feeling about in the dark, some arising, some gazing, some sitting still, and in many other attitudes—they were all within the embrace of Rangi-nui and Papa.6 > Sounds cramped and not a nice place to be.. It was after this manner that they dwelt in Pō, within the space included in the embrace of their parents. It was very long that condition of affairs existed; until at last a faint glimmering of light, a scintillation like the light of a star was seen, or like the Will-o-the-wisp at night. And now commenced a desire on the part of the family of gods to go forth from between their parents to follow the faint appearance of light. Some of them [the gods] consented, some did not; and thus it became a matter of strife between them. Tāne (68), Tu-pai (69)11 and others said, "Let us seek a means by which we may go forth." The matter was then assented to. Now, at a certain time after [that discussion] Ue-poto (28) went to bathe and wash away the clammy feeling arising through the warmth of their dwelling place [within the embrace of their parents]. He was carried away outside on the current of their mother's urine, and found himself outside in a gentle cooling breeze, which was sweet scented in the nostrils of Ue-poto. He thought, this is the best place, here outside, so he called out under the sides of his parents: "O sirs! Come outside, for this is a pleasant place for us." > urine could be hint for geothermal activity and accompanying sulfuric smells When the menstruous time of their mother Earth came, then Tāne (68) came forth. This was in the seventh Pō, or age of their desire to search for the "way of the female"12 in order to go forth. On reaching the outside world, they then saw that it was indeed a pleasant place for them [to dwell]. There was, however, a drawback; for the different kinds of the cold of Heaven [or space], Wero-i-te-ninihi, Wero-i-te-wawana, Kŭna-wiri, Maeke, and Kotokoto, there spread out their intense cold.13 Hence, did Rangi and Papa closely embrace [to exclude the cold from ther offspring], and, hence, also originated the 'goose-flesh,' and trembling through cold [from which mankind suffers to this day]. These are the enemies that afflicted the family14 of their father. In consequence of this, they sheltered under the sides of their mother, where they found warmth, which they named Whakaruru-taha [shelter-by-the-side], which name came down to us, and is applied to a warm and pleasant place where no winds blow. > Here we learn about the cold outside. Later on Tāne climbs up to the Sky and deals with some knowledge preservers Now, when Rangi-nui had been properly placed in position as is now to be seen, the blood from the arms dripped down on to Papa [the Earth], and hence is the horu [red oxide of iron], and the pukepoto [blue phosphate of iron], that his descendants in this world use in painting.19 And hence also is the red appearance that inflames the skies at sunrise or sunset—that is the blood of Rangi's arms. > This sounds a lot like the Blood Falls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Falls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Falls) an outflow of an (red) iron oxide-tainted plume of saltwater, flowing from the tongue of Taylor Glacier onto the ice-covered surface of West Lake Bonney in the Taylor Valley of the McMurdo Dry Valleys in Victoria Land, East Antarctica. The part of Antarctica that is closest to New Zealand and the Māori. As it is the blood of Rangi's [sky's] arms, Rangi is actually the Ice of Antarctica, or more generally glacial ice.

by goto11 5y ago

prmph 5y ago

Apparently before the flood there was massive amounts of water suspended high up in the atmosphere (but not falling as rain, hence disbelief of Noah's contemporaries about a coming flood). There was also water stored in rivers, lakes, oceans, and (ice?) on the surface of the earth. Most of the water in the atmosphere is what fell in the flood, causing some changes to the crust on the earth, and initiating the water cycle as we know it today. But you don't even have to accept this sequence of events. Even now we have large amounts of water suspended in the atmosphere (as clouds) and large amounts on the earth's surface (as described above). I'm not sure what is inaccurate about the description of this general state of affairs in Genesis.

munk-a 5y ago
The definition of water written about in the bible could not include water vapor suspended in air because that concept was unknown to the authors and not among the major contemporary theories of matter. It is strange to use modern understandings to justify historical statements made without those modern understandings.
- prmph 5y ago
  Isn't that a circular argument? My implicit claim is that the information in Genesis is coming from a superior source who would know, but you are saying that Genesis cannot be accurate because those who wrote it could not know what was scientifically accurate. The writers of the Bible books generally claimed that the information they wrote down was inspired.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    I think that's a logical trap - it implies that the contents of the bible are a direct transcription from a being with superior (or, in it's word, perfect) knowledge. If that's the case then mortal interpretation of the bible can understood to have been historically flawed until... well, until when? Can we understand it in a truthful manner now or are we still too imperfect beings to comprehend its actual truth? And, if we're failing to understand it properly are we doing so for good or ill - we know that some of the previous flawed interpretations were pretty awful. Declaring crusades and wars in the name of the Bible is an abhorrent interpretation to most modern christians - so how are we to know how correct our interpretations are?
  - goto11 5y ago
    Pretty badly inspired then, if they thought plants and trees were created before the sun and stars. Just goes to show that people and books which claim to be divinely inspired tend not to be very reliable.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  I don't think believers of the Bible claim that the Creation account in Genesis was written by a human who watched the events unfold, and who understood it enough to write an account based on their own understanding. Instead, it is claimed to be a divine revelation, given by God to explain (using language and ideas that would be most useful to most people) the important truths about the Creation process and Man's place within it.
  - f154hfds 5y ago
    As a Christian and a believer in the Bible I can attest that I see it exactly in the way you describe. The factual parts of the narrative / poem for the rest of the Bible as I see it are: 1. God is the architect of the universe 2. God is eternal and has no beginning 3. There was probably a historical Adam and Eve. The rest is extremely important for the philosophical basis of: 1. sinfulness of humanity 2. dignity of humanity (image of God) 3. the problem that justice can't be both restorative and retributive 4. inkling toward a solution to 3. (forgiveness/sacrifice/charity) And much more... it's a deep text.
ChrisKnott 5y ago
Did the moon exist before trees?
goto11 5y ago
> I'm not sure what is inaccurate about the description of this general state of affairs in Genesis. So how about God creating the sun, moon, and stars after creating plants and trees?

dane-pgp 5y ago

> But how about the claim that the sky is a vault which separate the waters above from the waters below? I don't think claims about vaults of water should be read as an architectural blueprint or an Ikea furniture assembly instruction booklet. There is a three dimensional region of the atmosphere which is above sea level and below the level at which clouds (floating bodies of water) can form. It's perfectly reasonable to poetically call that region a vault that separates the waters above from the waters below. > Or how about the claim that the sun and moon and stars was created after plants and trees were created? That's a great point, actually, although note that the narrative starts with the creation of "light" and the day-night cycle, before the creation of the trees and plants. Therefore one interpretation of the fourth day narrative is that it describes the sky becoming clearer so that these individual bodies can be seen. I think there is still some speculation among scientists about what the atmosphere of the early Earth was like, but it seems that it was greatly influenced by volcanism, and there was a thick haze of hydrocarbons for a large period of its history. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016703707002475 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00167... https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21598-haze-clears-on-ancient-earths-early-atmosphere/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21598-haze-clears-on-...

goto11 5y ago
> Therefore one interpretation of the fourth day narrative is that it describes the sky becoming clearer so that these individual bodies can be seen. It is not an interpretation which is justified by the text, but sure - you can interpret any text any way you want. But you are basically just writing your own text then.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Like I say, the text states that there is light and the day-night cycle before the sun, moon, and stars are created; so the text does not allow for a simplistic interpretation of the individual words in isolation. You could conclude that there is no logically consistent interpretation possible, and if your prior is that the narrative can't be correct then I suppose that's an appealing conclusion, but I think it is just as reasonable to say that the text is describing (at least poetically) the subjective experience of a nominal observer on the surface of the Earth as it is being formed.

xaedes 5y ago

The sky being a vault, or dome or touchable FIRMament, like "terrible crystal" (Ezekiel 1:22), separating the waters from the waters. I think it relates to the common Sky on Earth and Sky Earth Separation theme in myths from on around the world. Often people/ancestors/heroes/gods seem to have lived in a hollow between Sky Father and Earth Mother. Later in time both always get separated. Now for the interpretation - What is Sky Father? Is it the sky as we know it? We can't touch it, so probably not. Suppose it actually is something touchable, that looks like "terrible crystal", maybe even looks like the sky that we know. Something where people could take shelter in like in a vault, or cave. I think the Sky Father is some kind of (ice age?) glacier and the hollow between Sky and Earth is a glacial cave. Ice is a terrible cold crystal, firm, touchable, looks like the sky. Ice caves exist, but they dont provide a great home, but they separate the waters above from the waters below. There is always something to find with subterranean water in mythology.. Now if there is a geothermal spring below a glacier or chunk of ice, it could form a survivable space, that ticks all the marks. Many myths from all around the world share those elements to some degree, but I will here point only at one particular example, from - least expected - the Māori, that I find especially interesting, because of its mentioning of "extreme cold". https://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/lww/lww3.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/lww/lww3.htm Some excerpts (my comments marked with > at line begin): The Rangi-nui [great sky], which stands above, felt a desire towards Papa-tua-nuku [the earth], whose belly was turned up [towards him]; he desired her as a wife. So Rangi came down to Papa. In that period the amount of light was nil; absolute and complete darkness [po-kutikuti kakarauri] prevailed; there was no sun, no moon, no stars, no clouds, no light, no mist—no ripples stirred the surface of ocean; no breath of air, a complete and absolute stillness. And so Rangi-nui dwelt with Papa-tua-nuku as his wife; and then he set [hikaia = whakato, to set, plant] plants to cover the nakedness of Papa; for her armpits, her head, and the body; and after that the smaller trees to clothe them both, for the body of the earth was naked. Subsequently he placed the upstanding trees of the forest, and now Papa felt a great warmth, which was all-embracing. > and some more. Because Rangi-nui overlaid and completely covered Papa-tua-nuku, the growth of all things could not mature, nor could anything bear fruit [or increase]; they were in an unstable condition, floating about the Ao-pouri [the world of darkness], and this was their appearance: some were crawling [after the manner of lizards], some were upright with the arms held up, some were lying with the knees partly drawn p. 118 up, some lying on their sides, some were lying stretched out at full length, some on their backs, some were stooping, some with their heads bent down, some with their legs drawn up, some embracing, some kicking out with legs and arms, some kneeling, some standing, some inhaling deep breaths, some with exhausted breath, some crawling, some walking, some feeling about in the dark, some arising, some gazing, some sitting still, and in many other attitudes—they were all within the embrace of Rangi-nui and Papa.6 > Sounds cramped and not a nice place to be.. It was after this manner that they dwelt in Pō, within the space included in the embrace of their parents. It was very long that condition of affairs existed; until at last a faint glimmering of light, a scintillation like the light of a star was seen, or like the Will-o-the-wisp at night. And now commenced a desire on the part of the family of gods to go forth from between their parents to follow the faint appearance of light. Some of them [the gods] consented, some did not; and thus it became a matter of strife between them. Tāne (68), Tu-pai (69)11 and others said, "Let us seek a means by which we may go forth." The matter was then assented to. Now, at a certain time after [that discussion] Ue-poto (28) went to bathe and wash away the clammy feeling arising through the warmth of their dwelling place [within the embrace of their parents]. He was carried away outside on the current of their mother's urine, and found himself outside in a gentle cooling breeze, which was sweet scented in the nostrils of Ue-poto. He thought, this is the best place, here outside, so he called out under the sides of his parents: "O sirs! Come outside, for this is a pleasant place for us." > urine could be hint for geothermal activity and accompanying sulfuric smells When the menstruous time of their mother Earth came, then Tāne (68) came forth. This was in the seventh Pō, or age of their desire to search for the "way of the female"12 in order to go forth. On reaching the outside world, they then saw that it was indeed a pleasant place for them [to dwell]. There was, however, a drawback; for the different kinds of the cold of Heaven [or space], Wero-i-te-ninihi, Wero-i-te-wawana, Kŭna-wiri, Maeke, and Kotokoto, there spread out their intense cold.13 Hence, did Rangi and Papa closely embrace [to exclude the cold from ther offspring], and, hence, also originated the 'goose-flesh,' and trembling through cold [from which mankind suffers to this day]. These are the enemies that afflicted the family14 of their father. In consequence of this, they sheltered under the sides of their mother, where they found warmth, which they named Whakaruru-taha [shelter-by-the-side], which name came down to us, and is applied to a warm and pleasant place where no winds blow. > Here we learn about the cold outside. Later on Tāne climbs up to the Sky and deals with some knowledge preservers Now, when Rangi-nui had been properly placed in position as is now to be seen, the blood from the arms dripped down on to Papa [the Earth], and hence is the horu [red oxide of iron], and the pukepoto [blue phosphate of iron], that his descendants in this world use in painting.19 And hence also is the red appearance that inflames the skies at sunrise or sunset—that is the blood of Rangi's arms. > This sounds a lot like the Blood Falls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Falls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Falls) an outflow of an (red) iron oxide-tainted plume of saltwater, flowing from the tongue of Taylor Glacier onto the ice-covered surface of West Lake Bonney in the Taylor Valley of the McMurdo Dry Valleys in Victoria Land, East Antarctica. The part of Antarctica that is closest to New Zealand and the Māori. As it is the blood of Rangi's [sky's] arms, Rangi is actually the Ice of Antarctica, or more generally glacial ice.