5 ms·

That comparison might make some sense if Kurdistan were a enormous global power and shared a huge land border with Turkey. When in fact, Kurdistan [checks atlas

That comparison might make some sense if Kurdistan were a enormous global power and shared a huge land border with Turkey. When in fact, Kurdistan [checks atlas] does not exist at all as an independent country, much less a dominant world power.

thriftwy 5y ago
- pdabbadabba 5y ago
  As someone who has never been to Ukraine or Russia, I genuinely don't know: what has Ukraine actually done to repress its Russian minority? I've read that 1) Russian is not an official language in Ukraine, 2) there have been some efforts made to promote the speaking and teaching of Ukrainian (though Russian remains widely spoken) and 3) a Ukrainian bill recognizing Ukraine's "indigenous peoples" did not cover Russians. That strikes me as...almost nothing. What am I missing?
  - EB-Barrington 5y ago
    My home is Kyiv. I've been in Kyiv the entire war. It's rare to ever hear a conversation in Ukrainian in Kyiv, most people speak Russian. Even though lately some people I know have tried to "switch" to Ukrainian (most people are bi-lingual), they have all switched back to Russian pretty fast. Ukrainian is strongly promoted, and legislated in many situations. But, I think you have summed it up nicely with "almost nothing". I've never seen any repression of the "Russian minority", prior to this war. This is just anecdotal of course. Many Ukrainians have either Russian friends, or extended family, or heritage. However, now, I assume Russians will be persecuted in Ukraine pretty much forevermore. BTW, I'm not Ukrainian or Russian, I just live in Ukraine.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    - pdabbadabba 5y ago
      What does “closing of Russian schools” mean? What is a Russian school? A school that teaches the Russian language? And why are they closing? Were they banned by the government, or are they closing for some other reason? The explanation given here [1] is that Ukraine is only changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian, nationwide, not prohibiting the teaching of Russian. You shouldn’t believe everything that you read on the internet of course, but this strikes me as far more plausible. [1] https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/in-ukraine-schools-will-be-closed-in-large-numbers# https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/in-ukraine-schools-will-be-clo...
      - thriftwy 5y ago
        > changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian, Isn't that what Turkey does to kurds? Changing language of everything to turkish? You seem clueless in ethnic matters. Imagine your children school changing the "language of instruction" to French. Worse yet, the people of the website you are quoting are just as clueless and entirely not understanding what's going on here. To the extent of giving themself out.
        pdabbadabba 5y ago
        Is the name calling really necessary? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's hard to have a civil conversation on this topics, but I thought we were off to a strong start. I'm not sure why you keep putting "language of instruction" in quotes, like it is a euphemism. It just means "the language the teachers use in schools." Attending schools that are taught in something other than a person's native language is an extremely common experience around the world. Many nations think it is a good idea to have a standardized language of instruction in their schools. Is it a form of cultural repression? I see how it can be. We have had some political battles here in the U.S. about whether it is appropriate to provide public-school instruction in Spanish in areas with many Latino students. The battle lines in that debate are basically where you'd expect: some people emphasize the need for people to "assimilate" while others want to allow them to learn in whatever language is best for them and emphasize preservation of their culture. Certainly far worse happens to other cultures around the world and nobody bats an eyelash. And I've certainly never heard of any calls for a special military operation to "liberate" Latinos from U.S. communities because the local schools teach classes in English! Other countries (like Turkey with Kurdish) have gone much farther and actually banned the use of a language in various contexts--i.e., they don't just not use the language, they criminally prosecute people who do. In Turkey, people have been charged with "insulting Turkishness" or even treason, and been sent to prison, for speaking Kurdish in official settings, playing Kurdish music, etc.[1][2] If there's evidence of this going on in Ukraine, that might change my view. But so far everything I've heard about Ukraine absolutely pales in comparison. (Again, I don't necessarily credit every single one of these accounts. But in this case I have actually known some Kurdish refugees, and this generally aligns with their take on life in Turkey.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey#Diyarbak%C4%B1r_detentions_(2006) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people... [2] https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/kurdish-repression-turkey https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survi...
- EB-Barrington 5y ago
  Prior to the war, this is not entirely true other than exceptional cases. Now, it's very true, and will be forever. This is what happens when thousands of Russians invade your country, rape, murder, steal, destroy, and act like barbarians. I anticipate no forgiveness, and Russians will be unwelcome in Ukraine for a very long time. (IMHO, this is more than justified)

thriftwy 5y ago

pdabbadabba 5y ago
As someone who has never been to Ukraine or Russia, I genuinely don't know: what has Ukraine actually done to repress its Russian minority? I've read that 1) Russian is not an official language in Ukraine, 2) there have been some efforts made to promote the speaking and teaching of Ukrainian (though Russian remains widely spoken) and 3) a Ukrainian bill recognizing Ukraine's "indigenous peoples" did not cover Russians. That strikes me as...almost nothing. What am I missing?
- EB-Barrington 5y ago
  My home is Kyiv. I've been in Kyiv the entire war. It's rare to ever hear a conversation in Ukrainian in Kyiv, most people speak Russian. Even though lately some people I know have tried to "switch" to Ukrainian (most people are bi-lingual), they have all switched back to Russian pretty fast. Ukrainian is strongly promoted, and legislated in many situations. But, I think you have summed it up nicely with "almost nothing". I've never seen any repression of the "Russian minority", prior to this war. This is just anecdotal of course. Many Ukrainians have either Russian friends, or extended family, or heritage. However, now, I assume Russians will be persecuted in Ukraine pretty much forevermore. BTW, I'm not Ukrainian or Russian, I just live in Ukraine.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  - pdabbadabba 5y ago
    What does “closing of Russian schools” mean? What is a Russian school? A school that teaches the Russian language? And why are they closing? Were they banned by the government, or are they closing for some other reason? The explanation given here [1] is that Ukraine is only changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian, nationwide, not prohibiting the teaching of Russian. You shouldn’t believe everything that you read on the internet of course, but this strikes me as far more plausible. [1] https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/in-ukraine-schools-will-be-closed-in-large-numbers# https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/in-ukraine-schools-will-be-clo...
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      > changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian, Isn't that what Turkey does to kurds? Changing language of everything to turkish? You seem clueless in ethnic matters. Imagine your children school changing the "language of instruction" to French. Worse yet, the people of the website you are quoting are just as clueless and entirely not understanding what's going on here. To the extent of giving themself out.
      - pdabbadabba 5y ago
        Is the name calling really necessary? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's hard to have a civil conversation on this topics, but I thought we were off to a strong start. I'm not sure why you keep putting "language of instruction" in quotes, like it is a euphemism. It just means "the language the teachers use in schools." Attending schools that are taught in something other than a person's native language is an extremely common experience around the world. Many nations think it is a good idea to have a standardized language of instruction in their schools. Is it a form of cultural repression? I see how it can be. We have had some political battles here in the U.S. about whether it is appropriate to provide public-school instruction in Spanish in areas with many Latino students. The battle lines in that debate are basically where you'd expect: some people emphasize the need for people to "assimilate" while others want to allow them to learn in whatever language is best for them and emphasize preservation of their culture. Certainly far worse happens to other cultures around the world and nobody bats an eyelash. And I've certainly never heard of any calls for a special military operation to "liberate" Latinos from U.S. communities because the local schools teach classes in English! Other countries (like Turkey with Kurdish) have gone much farther and actually banned the use of a language in various contexts--i.e., they don't just not use the language, they criminally prosecute people who do. In Turkey, people have been charged with "insulting Turkishness" or even treason, and been sent to prison, for speaking Kurdish in official settings, playing Kurdish music, etc.[1][2] If there's evidence of this going on in Ukraine, that might change my view. But so far everything I've heard about Ukraine absolutely pales in comparison. (Again, I don't necessarily credit every single one of these accounts. But in this case I have actually known some Kurdish refugees, and this generally aligns with their take on life in Turkey.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey#Diyarbak%C4%B1r_detentions_(2006) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people... [2] https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/kurdish-repression-turkey https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survi...
EB-Barrington 5y ago
Prior to the war, this is not entirely true other than exceptional cases. Now, it's very true, and will be forever. This is what happens when thousands of Russians invade your country, rape, murder, steal, destroy, and act like barbarians. I anticipate no forgiveness, and Russians will be unwelcome in Ukraine for a very long time. (IMHO, this is more than justified)