7 ms·

Simular VR: Lenses and Schematics

98 points by BiteCode_dev 5y ago

35mm 5y ago
I like the immersive environment concept. And it seems like a good way to take advantage of the way human memory maps to 3D space. My concern about VR in general is: what distance are your eyes actually focused at? If they’re focused fairly close, isn’t that bad for eye health / cause eye strain?
- nomel 5y ago
  You can set the focus wherever you want. For the Quest 2, it's 1.2m [1], for most comfort at arm length. The future is varifocal systems though, since we use focus/depth of blur to judge size [2]. That's a really neat talk. As said there, you want the focal distance to be the same as the object, for least disagreement. 1. https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1371485209603022853 https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1371485209603022853 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWA4gVibKJE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWA4gVibKJE
  - mrfusion 5y ago
    > since we use focus/depth of blur to judge size I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the factor holding back VR for me. I just don’t feel immersed and everything feels kind of flat and small. Hard to describe.
    - nomel 5y ago
      Yeah, distance gets confusing. Things don't seem as big as they should. But, I found a workaround for this. In VR chat, I walked around several worlds with my characters forward movement speed set to the same as my treadmill. Slowly (a mile or so), the worlds became huge, it was really surreal. It fixed the scaling for everything, and it lasted about a day afterward. Mountains were distant and huge. Buildings looked far away. It was a significant change.
      - moron4hire 5y ago
        Things seeming like they are the wrong size is usually a sign of incorrect calibration for inter-pupilary distance.
        kanetw 5y ago
        Adjusting IPD is really annoying at times. Probably one of the main reasons I pushed for auto IPD in our feature set.
        moron4hire 5y ago
        I had a huge struggle debugging an issue on HoloLens that turned out to just be mis-calibrated IPD. Unbeknownst to myself, a coworker had ran the calibration on himself the night before and when I got the device back, suddenly all my graphics of 3D models overlapping real-world objects looked "wrong". Every time I tried to visually adjust the registration of the model to the object, it would be completely unaligned in the z-axis with respect to my view when I performed the alignment. Midway through debugging, I tried adjusting from multiple angles to get the model absolutely centered on the object, which then made it look like it was swimming in the air whenever I walked around it. I started to think there was something wrong with the device tracking, so I went through every calibration process on the device. I left IPD for last because I was used to working in VR where it doesn't really matter all that much, so I didn't expect it to be that important. IPD calibration on the original HoloLens was also a gigantic pain in the ass, as it took well over a full minute if clicking on objects with that interminable "air tap". Suddenly everything locked into place and was rock solid. Immediately bought IPD measuring tools, had my own measurements confirmed by my optometrist, and it's now the first thing I check on every new headset. Every auto calibration system I've used regularly gets my IPD be wrong by +-5mm. I don't know if that's a significant difference (it's almost 10%, so seems like it), but I don't take any chances anymore.
        kanetw 5y ago
        Not sure how other headsets do IPD, but with eye tracking it's pretty hard to get it wrong. If the eye's off center it's easily noticeable in the image.
    - zlsa 5y ago
      Yeah, it kind of sucks that every current VR headset has a focal range somewhere between 1.3 and 2m (depending on which headset.) I wish there was some kind of aftermarket lens swap to make that infinity; it would make things like Space Engine in VR way more impressive I think.
      - kanetw 5y ago
        Infinite focal distance isn't really doable with the space constraints you have in a headset. We tried, it massively increases complexity for no real gain.
        nomel 5y ago
        Was there a perceivable difference when looking at something at hand length and "infinity"?
    - ehnto 5y ago
      I have a friend with perfect vision, and he has trouble seeing things in video games on a flat screen. I have an eye that does not participate in the general effort, and so I don't have true binocular vision, yet I've always had great hand-eye coordination both in real life and in games, and never had motion sickness. I quietly theorize that this is because I use a multitude of other cues to judge distance, not the "6th sense" of depth that binocular vision provides. I would love to hear how other people experience sensing depth as it's a really fascinating topic, I have no idea what it's supposed to be like. Do you find you 'feel' depth, like if a ball were coming toward your face does it give you a feeling of something speeding toward you?
- kanetw 5y ago
  About 1-2m in our design.
outworlder 5y ago
For those that didn't know what this is: > The Simula One is an office-focused, standalone VR headset built on top of Linux Desktop. It provides comparable functionality to any Linux laptop or PC, but with the power of VR. > 2448x2448 per eye display resolution That's a fair bit higher than a Quest 2. That might be enough for productivity based on my own subjective tests. I hope they succeed. There's a lot of potential.
- benoliver999 5y ago
  I want it to succeed too, VR recently has become really quite impressive in many regards. I do wonder if it's overly ambitious. There's a Linux distro to maintain as part of this project as well as a huge hardware project.
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for your support! RE our ambition: the bulk of our work lies in hardware stuff going forward. Our VR compositor is already pretty stable, and people have been using it on older Linux compatible headsets (HTC Vive, Valve Index) for a few years now.[1] Our Linux distro will be a NixOS fork which uses nix as our package manager, and which bolts our VR compositor on top as the window manager. This choice will allow users to roll back to working configurations pretty easily if some sort of disaster ever occurs. With that said, this is an ambitious project. We're posting weekly (mostly technical) updates to help build trust that this is a real project making progress towards its target ship date (Q4 2022 - Q1 2023; review units incoming in a month or two). If there's a topic or question in the back of your mind of what's going on behind the scenes, let me know and I'll add it to our queue! [1] https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula
    - Kerbonut 5y ago
      While I love Linux and run it on my home stuff, at work it’s going to basically have to run Windows. Is that going to be an option ever?
phowat 5y ago
I've worked full time for the last 3 days on a quest 2 using Immersed. Although I'm liking the experience, it's still not as good as my regular 3 monitor setup. But there are already a lot of advantages and after this brief period, I firmly believe that this is going to be a very common setup in 2 or 3 years at most. I really hope Simula succeeds as I'd love an open and not-attached-to-facebook alternative to my current setup. Sadly, their current offerings are a little out of my price range.
- benoliver999 5y ago
  I've been in the same position as you, also on Immersed, and I just can't quite get used to reading text and editing code in VR. I think part of it is that you have to move your head not your eyes, and that's not how I tend to read. I have been really impressed with the hardware though. Games are good. Tracking is super precise. The way passthrough video is handled is really clever. I want it to be my multi-monitor setup but it's just not quite doing it for me yet.
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    > I think part of it is that you have to move your head not your eyes, and that's not how I tend to read. We're pushing hard on high pixel density to get around this issue. For comparison to the Quest 2, we have basically 70%+ better pixel density, which allows you to compress more text into a smaller area without having to crank your neck around to read everything.[1][2] [1] For specs comparison: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29699702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29699702 [2] For technical details on how we achieve such high PPD: https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/ https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/
    - taneq 5y ago
      How big is the 'sweet spot' of the lenses? I run an OG Samsung Odyssey HMD and while it's nicer than any other headset I've used (although a mate just got an Index so I'll get to try that sometime soon) I can still only look left/right by ~20° before I start losing visual quality.
toxik 5y ago
Typo in title, it’s simula. No r.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Yes. Would be helpful if OP or a mod could fix this =] Title should ideally be "SimulaVR: Lenses and Schematics".
pciexpgpu 5y ago
Are there any VR headsets with actual curved displays that closely track the curvature of the eyeball? Similar to curved monitors…
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kurthr 5y ago
  In general no, the optics in front of the displays creates the curved focal plane. In fact due to pin cushion effects of these optics, the corners of the displays are largely unused/invisible to the user. See the lens distortion on page 37. https://stanford.edu/class/ee267/lectures/lecture7.pdf https://stanford.edu/class/ee267/lectures/lecture7.pdf
- kanetw 5y ago
  There's a patent by Samsung on it, but no actual product. There's always optics in front, so it's not immediately helpful. But a curved surface might simplify lens design.
  - modo_mario 5y ago
    >There's a patent by Samsung on it, but no actual product. In a justifiable way or did they get to patent the equivalent of 'small curved display for vr purposes'?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      https://uploadvr.com/samsung-wide-fov-patent/ https://uploadvr.com/samsung-wide-fov-patent/ VR purposes. This might be what was used in the Odyssey, come to think of it.
vosper 5y ago
If this concept takes off it could be an interesting leveler (and level-up) for productivity, especially with people working at home. I'm sure there are loads of people out there working off a single laptop screen, maybe with an extra monitor if their employer has funded one and they have the space and technical ability to set that up correctly [0]. They're spending all day switching their tiny screen betwen Excel and Word and a browser and email and chat, and it's just killing productivity. If all it takes is a single piece of equipment, with one or two cables, to give any person an enormous virtual workspace - that could be a huge change. Everyone gets a laptop and a VR headset, so everyone is on the same level for that resource. Everyone has space for VR, so it's not lucky me with the full home office against unlucky you who works at their dining room table or on the couch. [0] Don't underestimate how complex this stuff is for many people - if they're even aware that it's possible!
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  We agree :) Our goal is for the Simula One to be so good that it's the strictly-more-productive choice over a single-screen laptop (and also over most PC setups too). Here's our pitch for why VR Computers can boost your productivity: - Provide unlimited screens of any size - Improve work focus & immersion (like "noise-cancelling headphones for your eyes") - Fully controllable with just a keyboard (with hand gestures, eye gaze tracking, etc) - Allow for fully portable, multi-screen computing - Usable outdoors (no laptop glare) in places like backyards, urban balconies, & parks - Provide more privacy (no one around you can snoop on your screen) - Compact design takes up less desk space than PCs/Laptops - Promote better posture & freedom of movement: with a VR Computer (VRC) you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute
  - woah 5y ago
    Whats the point of being outdoors if you can't see anything?
    - dougmwne 5y ago
      That's what the AR passthrough cameras are for!
creakingstairs 5y ago
I'm quite excited about the concept of working in VR. I've tried out Immersed with Quest 2. I really wish I could try SimularVR headset on physically before committing to it though. Quest 2 was cheap enough so I could risk it.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Yeah, I understand your concern here. Unfortunately this isn't possible currently since we're still making the headset =] We're targeting (stripped down) review units to be available in May-June time frame.[1] While this won't allow you to personally test a Simula One, it'll allow you to see it more tangibly tested by bloggers/YouTubers who can report their experience online. Also, if there's some particular aspect of the headset you're curious/have concern about, LMK and I'll see if I can provide more detail in an update or over DM. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/review-units-timeline/ https://simulavr.com/blog/review-units-timeline/
  - creakingstairs 5y ago
    Thanks for letting me know! The only concern is being able to see text clearly without having to move my head because that quickly got annoying. It does look like SimularVR's resolution + lenses may solve this issue though, so I'm keeping my hopes up. > We're targeting (stripped down) review units to be available in May-June time frame. That is very exciting. I'll keep my eyes peeled.
plafl 5y ago
I recently tried the Quest 2 and was blown away by the level of isolation from the external world it provides. It's pure concentration. I think VR has lot of potential for productivity (and education). Regarding the price point of Simula VR my thoughts are that they are only high for a yet unproved product. On the other hand, if the product delivers I could see myself expending 2500€ for personal use. After all I'm evaluating laptops right now for 1/2 the price. And then of course a company can recover that amount multiple times if people is just 5% more productive. Forgot to mention: I love it's Linux based, as it's my daily driver. I have seen the light but most of the people I know at work have switched to Mac, so I suppose that at some point it would make sense to give that option.
UltraViolence 5y ago

98 points by BiteCode_dev 5y ago

35mm 5y ago

I like the immersive environment concept. And it seems like a good way to take advantage of the way human memory maps to 3D space. My concern about VR in general is: what distance are your eyes actually focused at? If they’re focused fairly close, isn’t that bad for eye health / cause eye strain?

nomel 5y ago
You can set the focus wherever you want. For the Quest 2, it's 1.2m [1], for most comfort at arm length. The future is varifocal systems though, since we use focus/depth of blur to judge size [2]. That's a really neat talk. As said there, you want the focal distance to be the same as the object, for least disagreement. 1. https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1371485209603022853 https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1371485209603022853 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWA4gVibKJE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWA4gVibKJE
- mrfusion 5y ago
  > since we use focus/depth of blur to judge size I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the factor holding back VR for me. I just don’t feel immersed and everything feels kind of flat and small. Hard to describe.
  - nomel 5y ago
    Yeah, distance gets confusing. Things don't seem as big as they should. But, I found a workaround for this. In VR chat, I walked around several worlds with my characters forward movement speed set to the same as my treadmill. Slowly (a mile or so), the worlds became huge, it was really surreal. It fixed the scaling for everything, and it lasted about a day afterward. Mountains were distant and huge. Buildings looked far away. It was a significant change.
    - moron4hire 5y ago
      Things seeming like they are the wrong size is usually a sign of incorrect calibration for inter-pupilary distance.
      - kanetw 5y ago
        Adjusting IPD is really annoying at times. Probably one of the main reasons I pushed for auto IPD in our feature set.
        moron4hire 5y ago
        I had a huge struggle debugging an issue on HoloLens that turned out to just be mis-calibrated IPD. Unbeknownst to myself, a coworker had ran the calibration on himself the night before and when I got the device back, suddenly all my graphics of 3D models overlapping real-world objects looked "wrong". Every time I tried to visually adjust the registration of the model to the object, it would be completely unaligned in the z-axis with respect to my view when I performed the alignment. Midway through debugging, I tried adjusting from multiple angles to get the model absolutely centered on the object, which then made it look like it was swimming in the air whenever I walked around it. I started to think there was something wrong with the device tracking, so I went through every calibration process on the device. I left IPD for last because I was used to working in VR where it doesn't really matter all that much, so I didn't expect it to be that important. IPD calibration on the original HoloLens was also a gigantic pain in the ass, as it took well over a full minute if clicking on objects with that interminable "air tap". Suddenly everything locked into place and was rock solid. Immediately bought IPD measuring tools, had my own measurements confirmed by my optometrist, and it's now the first thing I check on every new headset. Every auto calibration system I've used regularly gets my IPD be wrong by +-5mm. I don't know if that's a significant difference (it's almost 10%, so seems like it), but I don't take any chances anymore.
        kanetw 5y ago
        Not sure how other headsets do IPD, but with eye tracking it's pretty hard to get it wrong. If the eye's off center it's easily noticeable in the image.
  - zlsa 5y ago
    Yeah, it kind of sucks that every current VR headset has a focal range somewhere between 1.3 and 2m (depending on which headset.) I wish there was some kind of aftermarket lens swap to make that infinity; it would make things like Space Engine in VR way more impressive I think.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      Infinite focal distance isn't really doable with the space constraints you have in a headset. We tried, it massively increases complexity for no real gain.
      - nomel 5y ago
        Was there a perceivable difference when looking at something at hand length and "infinity"?
  - ehnto 5y ago
    I have a friend with perfect vision, and he has trouble seeing things in video games on a flat screen. I have an eye that does not participate in the general effort, and so I don't have true binocular vision, yet I've always had great hand-eye coordination both in real life and in games, and never had motion sickness. I quietly theorize that this is because I use a multitude of other cues to judge distance, not the "6th sense" of depth that binocular vision provides. I would love to hear how other people experience sensing depth as it's a really fascinating topic, I have no idea what it's supposed to be like. Do you find you 'feel' depth, like if a ball were coming toward your face does it give you a feeling of something speeding toward you?
kanetw 5y ago
About 1-2m in our design.

outworlder 5y ago

For those that didn't know what this is: > The Simula One is an office-focused, standalone VR headset built on top of Linux Desktop. It provides comparable functionality to any Linux laptop or PC, but with the power of VR. > 2448x2448 per eye display resolution That's a fair bit higher than a Quest 2. That might be enough for productivity based on my own subjective tests. I hope they succeed. There's a lot of potential.

benoliver999 5y ago
I want it to succeed too, VR recently has become really quite impressive in many regards. I do wonder if it's overly ambitious. There's a Linux distro to maintain as part of this project as well as a huge hardware project.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Thanks for your support! RE our ambition: the bulk of our work lies in hardware stuff going forward. Our VR compositor is already pretty stable, and people have been using it on older Linux compatible headsets (HTC Vive, Valve Index) for a few years now.[1] Our Linux distro will be a NixOS fork which uses nix as our package manager, and which bolts our VR compositor on top as the window manager. This choice will allow users to roll back to working configurations pretty easily if some sort of disaster ever occurs. With that said, this is an ambitious project. We're posting weekly (mostly technical) updates to help build trust that this is a real project making progress towards its target ship date (Q4 2022 - Q1 2023; review units incoming in a month or two). If there's a topic or question in the back of your mind of what's going on behind the scenes, let me know and I'll add it to our queue! [1] https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula
  - Kerbonut 5y ago
    While I love Linux and run it on my home stuff, at work it’s going to basically have to run Windows. Is that going to be an option ever?

phowat 5y ago

I've worked full time for the last 3 days on a quest 2 using Immersed. Although I'm liking the experience, it's still not as good as my regular 3 monitor setup. But there are already a lot of advantages and after this brief period, I firmly believe that this is going to be a very common setup in 2 or 3 years at most. I really hope Simula succeeds as I'd love an open and not-attached-to-facebook alternative to my current setup. Sadly, their current offerings are a little out of my price range.

benoliver999 5y ago
I've been in the same position as you, also on Immersed, and I just can't quite get used to reading text and editing code in VR. I think part of it is that you have to move your head not your eyes, and that's not how I tend to read. I have been really impressed with the hardware though. Games are good. Tracking is super precise. The way passthrough video is handled is really clever. I want it to be my multi-monitor setup but it's just not quite doing it for me yet.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  > I think part of it is that you have to move your head not your eyes, and that's not how I tend to read. We're pushing hard on high pixel density to get around this issue. For comparison to the Quest 2, we have basically 70%+ better pixel density, which allows you to compress more text into a smaller area without having to crank your neck around to read everything.[1][2] [1] For specs comparison: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29699702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29699702 [2] For technical details on how we achieve such high PPD: https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/ https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/
  - taneq 5y ago
    How big is the 'sweet spot' of the lenses? I run an OG Samsung Odyssey HMD and while it's nicer than any other headset I've used (although a mate just got an Index so I'll get to try that sometime soon) I can still only look left/right by ~20° before I start losing visual quality.

toxik 5y ago

Typo in title, it’s simula. No r.

georgewsinger 5y ago
Yes. Would be helpful if OP or a mod could fix this =] Title should ideally be "SimulaVR: Lenses and Schematics".

pciexpgpu 5y ago

Are there any VR headsets with actual curved displays that closely track the curvature of the eyeball? Similar to curved monitors…

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kurthr 5y ago
In general no, the optics in front of the displays creates the curved focal plane. In fact due to pin cushion effects of these optics, the corners of the displays are largely unused/invisible to the user. See the lens distortion on page 37. https://stanford.edu/class/ee267/lectures/lecture7.pdf https://stanford.edu/class/ee267/lectures/lecture7.pdf
kanetw 5y ago
There's a patent by Samsung on it, but no actual product. There's always optics in front, so it's not immediately helpful. But a curved surface might simplify lens design.
- modo_mario 5y ago
  >There's a patent by Samsung on it, but no actual product. In a justifiable way or did they get to patent the equivalent of 'small curved display for vr purposes'?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    https://uploadvr.com/samsung-wide-fov-patent/ https://uploadvr.com/samsung-wide-fov-patent/ VR purposes. This might be what was used in the Odyssey, come to think of it.

vosper 5y ago

If this concept takes off it could be an interesting leveler (and level-up) for productivity, especially with people working at home. I'm sure there are loads of people out there working off a single laptop screen, maybe with an extra monitor if their employer has funded one and they have the space and technical ability to set that up correctly [0]. They're spending all day switching their tiny screen betwen Excel and Word and a browser and email and chat, and it's just killing productivity. If all it takes is a single piece of equipment, with one or two cables, to give any person an enormous virtual workspace - that could be a huge change. Everyone gets a laptop and a VR headset, so everyone is on the same level for that resource. Everyone has space for VR, so it's not lucky me with the full home office against unlucky you who works at their dining room table or on the couch. [0] Don't underestimate how complex this stuff is for many people - if they're even aware that it's possible!

georgewsinger 5y ago
We agree :) Our goal is for the Simula One to be so good that it's the strictly-more-productive choice over a single-screen laptop (and also over most PC setups too). Here's our pitch for why VR Computers can boost your productivity: - Provide unlimited screens of any size - Improve work focus & immersion (like "noise-cancelling headphones for your eyes") - Fully controllable with just a keyboard (with hand gestures, eye gaze tracking, etc) - Allow for fully portable, multi-screen computing - Usable outdoors (no laptop glare) in places like backyards, urban balconies, & parks - Provide more privacy (no one around you can snoop on your screen) - Compact design takes up less desk space than PCs/Laptops - Promote better posture & freedom of movement: with a VR Computer (VRC) you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute
- woah 5y ago
  Whats the point of being outdoors if you can't see anything?
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    That's what the AR passthrough cameras are for!

creakingstairs 5y ago

I'm quite excited about the concept of working in VR. I've tried out Immersed with Quest 2. I really wish I could try SimularVR headset on physically before committing to it though. Quest 2 was cheap enough so I could risk it.

georgewsinger 5y ago
Yeah, I understand your concern here. Unfortunately this isn't possible currently since we're still making the headset =] We're targeting (stripped down) review units to be available in May-June time frame.[1] While this won't allow you to personally test a Simula One, it'll allow you to see it more tangibly tested by bloggers/YouTubers who can report their experience online. Also, if there's some particular aspect of the headset you're curious/have concern about, LMK and I'll see if I can provide more detail in an update or over DM. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/review-units-timeline/ https://simulavr.com/blog/review-units-timeline/
- creakingstairs 5y ago
  Thanks for letting me know! The only concern is being able to see text clearly without having to move my head because that quickly got annoying. It does look like SimularVR's resolution + lenses may solve this issue though, so I'm keeping my hopes up. > We're targeting (stripped down) review units to be available in May-June time frame. That is very exciting. I'll keep my eyes peeled.

plafl 5y ago

I recently tried the Quest 2 and was blown away by the level of isolation from the external world it provides. It's pure concentration. I think VR has lot of potential for productivity (and education). Regarding the price point of Simula VR my thoughts are that they are only high for a yet unproved product. On the other hand, if the product delivers I could see myself expending 2500€ for personal use. After all I'm evaluating laptops right now for 1/2 the price. And then of course a company can recover that amount multiple times if people is just 5% more productive. Forgot to mention: I love it's Linux based, as it's my daily driver. I have seen the light but most of the people I know at work have switched to Mac, so I suppose that at some point it would make sense to give that option.

UltraViolence 5y ago