5 ms·

How far should free speech extend while you're on the job and talking to the customers of your employer?

throw_m239339 5y ago
> How far should free speech extend while you're on the job and talking to the customers of your employer? Students aren't customers. Otherwise professors would only issue good grades. Second if professors are deemed "employees" then employees have rights.
- deadbolt 5y ago
  Exactly what right as an employee do you have which allows you to create a hostile environment for customers?
  - throw_m239339 5y ago
    > Exactly what right as an employee do you have to create a hostile environment for customers? What right does the employer has to violate my religious rights? And students aren't customers.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - deadbolt 5y ago
      Which religion governs pronoun usage?
    - Bud 5y ago
      There is no "religious right" to be an abusive asshole. Further, there is no religion whose tenets require you to be abusive to trans people, or which even suggest such behavior.
    - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
      I know that's the same argument the professor was making, essentially, but forget the specific details of this case for the moment and look at it in the abstract. You -- and he -- are essentially arguing that the legal right to religious freedom carries an ancillary right to be actively insulting to others who are required to interact with you in entirely non-religious contexts. That strikes me as a hell of a reach. If you genuinely feel that your religion obligates you to be an asshole to people who you believe are violating its tenets, then maybe the onus should be on you to not choose a career that may put you in regular contact with those people.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    If everything is hostile to your sensitivities, at what point are businesses, customers or polite people no longer obligated to accommodate you?
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      That has always been left to the employer's discretion. This is not a new issue.
      - votepaunchy 5y ago
        And here, the customer is the federal government.
- dgaaaaaaaaaa 5y ago
  Sure they do. But not the right to say whatever you want at your job.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  By that logic, auto emissions test locations would never issue failing tests for their customers cars, and IT cert companies would never issue failing grades to people who take their cert tests.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  College students are consumers not customers. From the article in Inside Higher Education: >>There is a fundamental tension between applying the student as customer paradigm vs. society as customer paradigm to higher education. If students are the customer, then the retail model requires them to be right. The aphorism “The customer is always right” is the guiding principle. Some faculty members express experiencing a tacit pressure to relax standards based on serving the student as a customer. Customer-service logic suggests: A grades make happy students; happy students are good customers; good customers are repeat customers; repeat customers tell friends; referrals are good for business. Yet students are not always right. And neither are universities. Not fully understanding who the customer is in higher education tends toward granting students academic concessions. At four-year colleges, the A grade has increased between five and six percentage points every decade for the last 30 years and is now three times more prevalent than in 1960. Today, the A is the most common grade at four-year institutions. Some students and parents believe that, if they complain enough, a faculty member will change a grade. And if the faculty does not, then they call the manager. The retail model is not only about grades. Most retail establishments maintain return and exchange policies when customers are not satisfied. Students erroneously try to apply the same policies. I’ve had students who have argued, “I paid for this class and didn’t get anything out of it, so I shouldn’t have to pay.” Usually at semester’s end, a number of students inquire about getting refunds for classes they want to drop because they may not pass the class. Most recently, I encountered a graduate student who wanted a “store credit” for a class that she never completed to be applied to a different class in an upcoming semester<< https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/05/higher-ed-should-view-public-not-student-customer-essay#:~:text=Students%20are%20consumers%2C%20not%20customers,students%20are%20clearly%20the%20consumer https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/05/higher-ed-sh....
_aavaa_ 5y ago
I don't know. And further, I don't know how far US judges have extended it. Based on the article, the actions taken against him are a direct responce to his speech and his, stated, religions beliefs. And given that the courts sided with him, I am led to believe that this incident is on the "infringed free speech" side of the spectrum.
rhino369 5y ago
A lot farther when your employer is the government--like it was here.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
One of the peculiarities of the situation is that because so many Universities receive federal funding, they wind up being held accountable as if they were some other government institution. I suspect if this had happened at a totally private college taking in no federal money the case would have been decided differently.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I would guess that the number of private colleges _not_ taking federal money in one form or another is microscopic, if any even exist at all. Private institutions get on the hook for this kind of stuff all the time just for taking state/federal assistance for their school lunch program.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    > Among the other schools that don’t participate in Title IV financial-aid programs are Grove City College in Pennsylvania; Christendom College in Virginia; Pensacola Christian College in Florida; Patrick Henry College in Virginia; and tiny Wyoming Catholic College and Gutenberg College in Oregon, which have 150 and 22 students, respectively. At least one Orthodox Jewish institution, Yeshiva Toras Chaim Talmudic Seminary of Denver, also opts out of Title IV, -- https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-controversial-reason-some-religious-colleges-forgo-federal-funding/490253/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-co...
    - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
      Thanks for that. So what I'm gathering is that they do exist, but the number is absolutely tiny.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Yup.
- joshcryer 5y ago
GeekyBear 5y ago
A college that takes Federal funds is subject to harsher scrutiny. >Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits federal agencies from discriminating against employees or applicants for employment because of their religious beliefs in hiring, firing and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, Title VII requires federal agencies to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs or practices of employees or applicants unless doing so would impose an undue hardship upon the agency. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/civil-rights-center/internal/policies/religious-discrimination-accommodation https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/civil-rights-center/inter...
- deadbolt 5y ago
  Can someone please tell me what religion has anything to do with this? No religion I'm aware of forbids you from using someone's preferred pronouns.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Religion has something to do with this because, quoting the article: > According to ADF, the university ruled that Meriwether should use the student's correct pronouns — which Meriwether argued spoke "contrary to his religious convictions and philosophical beliefs."
    - deadbolt 5y ago
      So can I argue that it's my religious belief that I need to call everyone 'jackass'? I would think there would need to be actual religious grounds for the claim, which I don't believe there are. No religion I'm aware of says you can't address someone by the pronouns for their preferred gender identity. Can you really just say "religion!" and then do whatever you want?
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Here is the claim, quoting https://adfmedia.org/press-release/court-consider-whether-ohio-university-violated-professors-first-amendment-rights https://adfmedia.org/press-release/court-consider-whether-oh... (linked to from this article): > Although the philosophy professor offered to use the student’s preferred first or last name, and university officials initially agreed that was an acceptable compromise, officials then changed course and forced Dr. Meriwether either to speak what he believed to be untrue or to remain silent, all contrary to his own Christian convictions and philosophical beliefs. The argument appears to be that Meriwether does not believe the student's preferred pronoun is correct, and using it would therefore be a falsehood which violates his Christian belief.
hikik0m0ri 5y ago
1. It's different for professors there is legal precedent that their speech is protected while teaching. 2. If a school accepts public funds it capitulates it's private ownership 3. the professor tried to compromise multiple times. I am usually on the side of the student in these situations. Although I'm not religious I can understand how it's abusive to both sides, but only one side tried to compromise.

> How far should free speech extend while you're on the job and talking to the customers of your employer? Students aren't customers. Otherwise professors would only issue good grades. Second if professors are deemed "employees" then employees have rights.

deadbolt 5y ago
Exactly what right as an employee do you have which allows you to create a hostile environment for customers?
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > Exactly what right as an employee do you have to create a hostile environment for customers? What right does the employer has to violate my religious rights? And students aren't customers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deadbolt 5y ago
    Which religion governs pronoun usage?
  - Bud 5y ago
    There is no "religious right" to be an abusive asshole. Further, there is no religion whose tenets require you to be abusive to trans people, or which even suggest such behavior.
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    I know that's the same argument the professor was making, essentially, but forget the specific details of this case for the moment and look at it in the abstract. You -- and he -- are essentially arguing that the legal right to religious freedom carries an ancillary right to be actively insulting to others who are required to interact with you in entirely non-religious contexts. That strikes me as a hell of a reach. If you genuinely feel that your religion obligates you to be an asshole to people who you believe are violating its tenets, then maybe the onus should be on you to not choose a career that may put you in regular contact with those people.
- aww_dang 5y ago
  If everything is hostile to your sensitivities, at what point are businesses, customers or polite people no longer obligated to accommodate you?
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    That has always been left to the employer's discretion. This is not a new issue.
    - votepaunchy 5y ago
      And here, the customer is the federal government.
dgaaaaaaaaaa 5y ago
Sure they do. But not the right to say whatever you want at your job.
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
By that logic, auto emissions test locations would never issue failing tests for their customers cars, and IT cert companies would never issue failing grades to people who take their cert tests.
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
College students are consumers not customers. From the article in Inside Higher Education: >>There is a fundamental tension between applying the student as customer paradigm vs. society as customer paradigm to higher education. If students are the customer, then the retail model requires them to be right. The aphorism “The customer is always right” is the guiding principle. Some faculty members express experiencing a tacit pressure to relax standards based on serving the student as a customer. Customer-service logic suggests: A grades make happy students; happy students are good customers; good customers are repeat customers; repeat customers tell friends; referrals are good for business. Yet students are not always right. And neither are universities. Not fully understanding who the customer is in higher education tends toward granting students academic concessions. At four-year colleges, the A grade has increased between five and six percentage points every decade for the last 30 years and is now three times more prevalent than in 1960. Today, the A is the most common grade at four-year institutions. Some students and parents believe that, if they complain enough, a faculty member will change a grade. And if the faculty does not, then they call the manager. The retail model is not only about grades. Most retail establishments maintain return and exchange policies when customers are not satisfied. Students erroneously try to apply the same policies. I’ve had students who have argued, “I paid for this class and didn’t get anything out of it, so I shouldn’t have to pay.” Usually at semester’s end, a number of students inquire about getting refunds for classes they want to drop because they may not pass the class. Most recently, I encountered a graduate student who wanted a “store credit” for a class that she never completed to be applied to a different class in an upcoming semester<< https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/05/higher-ed-should-view-public-not-student-customer-essay#:~:text=Students%20are%20consumers%2C%20not%20customers,students%20are%20clearly%20the%20consumer https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/05/higher-ed-sh....

_aavaa_ 5y ago

I don't know. And further, I don't know how far US judges have extended it. Based on the article, the actions taken against him are a direct responce to his speech and his, stated, religions beliefs. And given that the courts sided with him, I am led to believe that this incident is on the "infringed free speech" side of the spectrum.

rhino369 5y ago

A lot farther when your employer is the government--like it was here.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

One of the peculiarities of the situation is that because so many Universities receive federal funding, they wind up being held accountable as if they were some other government institution. I suspect if this had happened at a totally private college taking in no federal money the case would have been decided differently.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I would guess that the number of private colleges _not_ taking federal money in one form or another is microscopic, if any even exist at all. Private institutions get on the hook for this kind of stuff all the time just for taking state/federal assistance for their school lunch program.
- eesmith 5y ago
  > Among the other schools that don’t participate in Title IV financial-aid programs are Grove City College in Pennsylvania; Christendom College in Virginia; Pensacola Christian College in Florida; Patrick Henry College in Virginia; and tiny Wyoming Catholic College and Gutenberg College in Oregon, which have 150 and 22 students, respectively. At least one Orthodox Jewish institution, Yeshiva Toras Chaim Talmudic Seminary of Denver, also opts out of Title IV, -- https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-controversial-reason-some-religious-colleges-forgo-federal-funding/490253/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-co...
  - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
    Thanks for that. So what I'm gathering is that they do exist, but the number is absolutely tiny.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Yup.
joshcryer 5y ago

GeekyBear 5y ago

A college that takes Federal funds is subject to harsher scrutiny. >Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits federal agencies from discriminating against employees or applicants for employment because of their religious beliefs in hiring, firing and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, Title VII requires federal agencies to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs or practices of employees or applicants unless doing so would impose an undue hardship upon the agency. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/civil-rights-center/internal/policies/religious-discrimination-accommodation https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/civil-rights-center/inter...

deadbolt 5y ago
Can someone please tell me what religion has anything to do with this? No religion I'm aware of forbids you from using someone's preferred pronouns.
- eesmith 5y ago
  Religion has something to do with this because, quoting the article: > According to ADF, the university ruled that Meriwether should use the student's correct pronouns — which Meriwether argued spoke "contrary to his religious convictions and philosophical beliefs."
  - deadbolt 5y ago
    So can I argue that it's my religious belief that I need to call everyone 'jackass'? I would think there would need to be actual religious grounds for the claim, which I don't believe there are. No religion I'm aware of says you can't address someone by the pronouns for their preferred gender identity. Can you really just say "religion!" and then do whatever you want?
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Here is the claim, quoting https://adfmedia.org/press-release/court-consider-whether-ohio-university-violated-professors-first-amendment-rights https://adfmedia.org/press-release/court-consider-whether-oh... (linked to from this article): > Although the philosophy professor offered to use the student’s preferred first or last name, and university officials initially agreed that was an acceptable compromise, officials then changed course and forced Dr. Meriwether either to speak what he believed to be untrue or to remain silent, all contrary to his own Christian convictions and philosophical beliefs. The argument appears to be that Meriwether does not believe the student's preferred pronoun is correct, and using it would therefore be a falsehood which violates his Christian belief.

hikik0m0ri 5y ago

1. It's different for professors there is legal precedent that their speech is protected while teaching. 2. If a school accepts public funds it capitulates it's private ownership 3. the professor tried to compromise multiple times. I am usually on the side of the student in these situations. Although I'm not religious I can understand how it's abusive to both sides, but only one side tried to compromise.