3 ms·

"...if the band is fully abandoned in the near future I say we should open the top 150 kHz or so for hobbyists operating at a low power of around 50 W or so."

"...if the band is fully abandoned in the near future I say we should open the top 150 kHz or so for hobbyists operating at a low power of around 50 W or so." About 20 or so years ago I suggested to radio amateurs to set up a network for earthquake research but there were no takers back then. It's known that often before an earthquake that highly stressed rock can radiate low frequency electromagnetic fields. If a widespread network of low frequency listening stations were established around the world then it's just possible that these waves could be detected before an earthquake begins within sufficient time to give vulnerable people adequate warning. Because of the still-experimental nature of such research it is unlikely that governments or commercial operators could justify the funds necessary to set up sufficient (or the necessary) number of listening stations worldwide for the scheme to work (at least initially until proven to work). The solution: use the amateur radio network. Not only would it be in keeping with the longstanding ethos of amateur radio operators supplying emergency communications during disasters but also it would interest many radio amateurs from a scientific stance. The way I'd envision it to work is that amateur stations would set up (VLF) very low frequency transmitters to act as beacons in a sort of cellular grid where a station would continually monitor one frequency and transmit on another (multiple frequencies being necessary so transmitters and receivers can be used simultaneously at each station (location)). When the transmission path is such that a signal is either received and or its signal varies with a signature that's characteristic of an earthquake then warnings can be issued. It's my understanding that the transmission frequencies necessary would need to be much lower than any amateur band currently issued or agreed upon by the ITU, etc. (i.e.: in the 10s of kHz or so), so new amateur bands may have to be issued (initially, they could be allocated on a trial or experiential basis). It seems to me that perhaps geologists, scientists and engineers with an interest in electronics or radio communications may wish to follow up this idea.

Johnythree 5y ago
Monitoring for earthquake research is a great idea but there's no need to base it on Amateur Radio, as there is no shortage of Military VLF transmitters to monitor. There have long been enthusiastic groups of shortwave listeners involved in such projects, for instance there's a world-wide group of VLF listeners who are interested in sudden ionospheric disturbances (SID). see https://physicsopenlab.org/2020/05/07/vlf-receiver-for-sid-monitoring/ https://physicsopenlab.org/2020/05/07/vlf-receiver-for-sid-m... Also have a look at the "Natural Radio & VLF Group" at VLF@groups.io You might be surprised to hear that there is an active group of enthusiasts who are now transmitting over thousands of miles using ELF wavelengths (eg audio frequencies) that are not in any existing Amateur radio bands. see http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ and https://naturalradiolab.com/ https://naturalradiolab.com/ And FWIW, in recent years Amateur Radio operators world wide have been granted access to a number of VLF radio bands, eg the new 137kHz band.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  Thanks for that, obviously I've not been keeping up with recent developments. When I asked some of those who were supposedly in the know (radio amateurs) a few years back if there had been any effective (actual) earthquake warnings they resounded with a define 'no' so I reckoned that it was a fair assumption that there were still insufficient monitoring stations listening or that no one was transmitting on suitable frequencies to detect any such signals/earthquake detections. I've not heard anything to the contrary since then (published in Science, etc.). So far, I've only had the most cursory glance at your links but I didn't see any references except for a short comment to the effect that there was 'nothing conclusive yet'.
  - Johnythree 5y ago
    I think the problem is that you asked the wrong group. Amateur Radio operators have a huge range of interests, but Earthquake monitoring and SIDs are very much in the province of Shortwave Listeners, eg the very active VLF group at VLF@groups.io There is some overlap, but the prime focus is on different frequency bands and different areas of propagation research. And FWIW, there is a large and active interest in VLF propagation research coming from the various universities, particularly centered on Arctic/Antarctic monitoring stations.
    - hilbert42 5y ago
      As a once active amateur (I obtained my license when I was 15 at highschool), I thought I'd had a reasonable handle on amateur activities but perhaps those in question never made it to my part of the world. Moreover, from my observation, the quantities of research papers in the scientific press (in relative terms that is) on these topics have decreased. For example, the last IGY was in 1957/8 so it's been a very long time between drinks so to speak: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Ye.... Back then, this kind of research was public knowledge (I was just old enough to appreciate its significance and it was a huge deal). In comparison with the '57/8 IGY, more recent attempts have been second-rate also-rans. We need the level of support and interest that the IGY received if we're to make real progress in these areas. Nowadays, like much scientific research that isn't mainstream (say, unlike the well-funded biological sciences), it doesn't attract a great deal of mainstream interest as it would have done in the days when the use of the spectrum below 30MHz was technologically, economically and strategically important (MF and HF/SW broadcasting for example). When did you last hear of developments in RF and ionospheric research below 30MHz make it into the nightly TV news? Point made! More to the point, my main concern here is with Amateur Radio in that it has been in significant decline for decades (at least it's definitely so where I am in VK). There are those who say the interest is as strong as ever but the numbers speak for themselves (and it's a big worry - for I won't have to remind you of the ever-present Use them or lose them arguments). This loss of interest in AR has meant that fewer younger people are entering the hobby - most of those who now attend field days etc. are ancient and have little interest in pursuing the matters you've raised. AR is now a far cry from when I first obtained my license decades ago, unfortunalely, it's only a shadow of its former self. The concomitant effect of this loss of numbers/new blood is that SIGs are small, few in number and now lack sufficient resources to be significantly effective forces in large projects (such as those under discussion here). In short, Amateur Radio no longer carries the prestige and influence it once did with both government and the general public. No doubt you'd disagree. Trouble is times have changed and moved on, such topics are now much more rigorous in that they require a greater indepth engineering/scientific understanding, and university students no longer have the time to play Amateur Radio or to belong to SIGs, etc., etc. as they once did. Of course there are exceptions but the low numbers again speak for themselves. Unfortunately, the more professional approach towards scientific research these days leaves little room for amateurs and hobbyists. We've seen this repeatedly over the years and nothing reminds me more of this than the way the hobbyists and amateurs were cast aside in the early days of microprocessors. Now that the Big Boys have moved in and taken over we're now left with a secret proprietary world that amateurs, hobbyists and independent professionals have lost control thereof. Their act of excluding us means we're no longer informed about the technology and if we dare reverse-engieer the tech then we'll likely end up in the slammer. Facts are that we're no longer wanted participants in computer tech - but only as subservient consumers who no longer complain. Frankly, I hate this state this affairs but it's the way of the world and I - we - have little or no chance of changing it.

Johnythree 5y ago

Monitoring for earthquake research is a great idea but there's no need to base it on Amateur Radio, as there is no shortage of Military VLF transmitters to monitor. There have long been enthusiastic groups of shortwave listeners involved in such projects, for instance there's a world-wide group of VLF listeners who are interested in sudden ionospheric disturbances (SID). see https://physicsopenlab.org/2020/05/07/vlf-receiver-for-sid-monitoring/ https://physicsopenlab.org/2020/05/07/vlf-receiver-for-sid-m... Also have a look at the "Natural Radio & VLF Group" at VLF@groups.io You might be surprised to hear that there is an active group of enthusiasts who are now transmitting over thousands of miles using ELF wavelengths (eg audio frequencies) that are not in any existing Amateur radio bands. see http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ and https://naturalradiolab.com/ https://naturalradiolab.com/ And FWIW, in recent years Amateur Radio operators world wide have been granted access to a number of VLF radio bands, eg the new 137kHz band.

hilbert42 5y ago
Thanks for that, obviously I've not been keeping up with recent developments. When I asked some of those who were supposedly in the know (radio amateurs) a few years back if there had been any effective (actual) earthquake warnings they resounded with a define 'no' so I reckoned that it was a fair assumption that there were still insufficient monitoring stations listening or that no one was transmitting on suitable frequencies to detect any such signals/earthquake detections. I've not heard anything to the contrary since then (published in Science, etc.). So far, I've only had the most cursory glance at your links but I didn't see any references except for a short comment to the effect that there was 'nothing conclusive yet'.
- Johnythree 5y ago
  I think the problem is that you asked the wrong group. Amateur Radio operators have a huge range of interests, but Earthquake monitoring and SIDs are very much in the province of Shortwave Listeners, eg the very active VLF group at VLF@groups.io There is some overlap, but the prime focus is on different frequency bands and different areas of propagation research. And FWIW, there is a large and active interest in VLF propagation research coming from the various universities, particularly centered on Arctic/Antarctic monitoring stations.
  - hilbert42 5y ago
    As a once active amateur (I obtained my license when I was 15 at highschool), I thought I'd had a reasonable handle on amateur activities but perhaps those in question never made it to my part of the world. Moreover, from my observation, the quantities of research papers in the scientific press (in relative terms that is) on these topics have decreased. For example, the last IGY was in 1957/8 so it's been a very long time between drinks so to speak: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Ye.... Back then, this kind of research was public knowledge (I was just old enough to appreciate its significance and it was a huge deal). In comparison with the '57/8 IGY, more recent attempts have been second-rate also-rans. We need the level of support and interest that the IGY received if we're to make real progress in these areas. Nowadays, like much scientific research that isn't mainstream (say, unlike the well-funded biological sciences), it doesn't attract a great deal of mainstream interest as it would have done in the days when the use of the spectrum below 30MHz was technologically, economically and strategically important (MF and HF/SW broadcasting for example). When did you last hear of developments in RF and ionospheric research below 30MHz make it into the nightly TV news? Point made! More to the point, my main concern here is with Amateur Radio in that it has been in significant decline for decades (at least it's definitely so where I am in VK). There are those who say the interest is as strong as ever but the numbers speak for themselves (and it's a big worry - for I won't have to remind you of the ever-present Use them or lose them arguments). This loss of interest in AR has meant that fewer younger people are entering the hobby - most of those who now attend field days etc. are ancient and have little interest in pursuing the matters you've raised. AR is now a far cry from when I first obtained my license decades ago, unfortunalely, it's only a shadow of its former self. The concomitant effect of this loss of numbers/new blood is that SIGs are small, few in number and now lack sufficient resources to be significantly effective forces in large projects (such as those under discussion here). In short, Amateur Radio no longer carries the prestige and influence it once did with both government and the general public. No doubt you'd disagree. Trouble is times have changed and moved on, such topics are now much more rigorous in that they require a greater indepth engineering/scientific understanding, and university students no longer have the time to play Amateur Radio or to belong to SIGs, etc., etc. as they once did. Of course there are exceptions but the low numbers again speak for themselves. Unfortunately, the more professional approach towards scientific research these days leaves little room for amateurs and hobbyists. We've seen this repeatedly over the years and nothing reminds me more of this than the way the hobbyists and amateurs were cast aside in the early days of microprocessors. Now that the Big Boys have moved in and taken over we're now left with a secret proprietary world that amateurs, hobbyists and independent professionals have lost control thereof. Their act of excluding us means we're no longer informed about the technology and if we dare reverse-engieer the tech then we'll likely end up in the slammer. Facts are that we're no longer wanted participants in computer tech - but only as subservient consumers who no longer complain. Frankly, I hate this state this affairs but it's the way of the world and I - we - have little or no chance of changing it.