7 ms·

How about giving back money to people who paid back their loans, possibly going through even greater difficulties to do that.

fortran77 4y ago
People in the US are always punished for being financially responsible.
- nr2x 4y ago
  More people are punished for being born poor - lead paint, air pollution, and crumbling schools don’t exactly lend themselves to upward mobility.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    Rewarding people who have worked for decades to climb out of that situation by lifting those who didn't do the same to the same financial position doesn't exactly encourage upward mobility, either.
    - omegaworks 4y ago
      So you would rather your neighbors be poor?
      - nr2x 4y ago
        Some people can’t accept the fact that nothing separates them from a common beggar beyond luck.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- 31098347 4y ago
  People who have paid their student loan debt are in exactly the same situation they were after this forgiveness than they were before: that is, they have no student loan debt. People in the US are not punished for being financially responsible. They are rewarded for taking risks, but not punished for being responsible. Very different.
  - loeg 4y ago
    > People who have paid their student loan debt are in exactly the same situation they were after this forgiveness than they were before: that is, they have no student loan debt. You're missing the point, either deliberately or on accident. (Prefacing this with: we should keep and honor the terms of the existing PSLF program that students relied on when taking on debt.) There's no particular reason people with current loan debt, but ineligible for PSLF, should get a wealth transfer from other taxpayers with similar income, net worth, and expenses -- but no current student loan debt. > People in the US are not punished for being financially responsible. They are rewarded for taking risks, but not punished for being responsible. In fact, a hypothetical student debt forgiveness event like GP was discussing would punish those who responsibly paid off their student debts relative to similar-earning classmates who did not.
    - 31098347 4y ago
      >In fact, a hypothetical student debt forgiveness event like GP was discussing would punish those who responsibly paid off their student debts relative to similar-earning classmates who did not. Punish how? This word keeps being used but it does not fit any definition of punish I'm familiar with. I'm not being obtuse. Some background of where I'm coming from: Worked 40+hrs/week for $7.25 to $10/hr from 2005 to 2009 to get a four year degree from a state school. Graduated with $35,000 in student loan debt myself and about $20,000 in debt through Parent Plus loans. My parents sent me some money for rent on occasion, but overall -- that's how I di it. I also paid off all my student loans, and my parent plus loans. If someone graduated with $100,000 debt because they partied all the time, didn't work, and tomorrow Biden just gave them a tax-free forgiveness.... I am not punished by this. At all. It has no impact on my life whatsoever. I made the best choice I could make with my circumstances, and I paid off my loans because at the time that was the best way to secure my future. The day before the party-guy got his $100k write-off and the day after, I wake up in the same house, with the same car, with the same job, with the same spouse. My life doesn't change at all.
      - loeg 4y ago
        > If someone graduated with $100,000 debt because they partied all the time, didn't work, and tomorrow Biden just gave them a tax-free forgiveness.... > I am not punished by this. Imagine a fair and equitable spending program that distributed $100k to everyone. It's fair, and people with debt could use it to pay off their loans (you could even require it to be used to pay off student loans first). If your goal is to help people with loans pay off their debts, it is an effective program. It's also obviously fair. Then, tax 100% of the distribution for people without student loan balances. This is the step that imposes a punitive expense, relative to a fair program, on people without student loans. That's what these proposals look like. There's no particular reason recent college students as a group should be the sole recipients of a wealth transfer.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  This attitude, as stated, is one of the fundamental evils, I think (the implication being "If I can't have it, nobody can", or, in this case, "If I didn't get it when it was relevant to me, nobody can"). In this case, the core grievance is valid ("I think there's a better way to address the problem"), but this expression of it makes the problem into the super common "us vs them" where "them" is defined by the terrible cultural obsession with the concept of "deserved" punishment and personal responsibility in an unqualified, absolutist manner ("He committed a crime, he deserves anything that happens", "He failed to pay a loan, he deserves anything that happens", "She had sex, she deserves anything that happens", etc).
  - dudul 4y ago
    The way you present the problem is inaccurate to me. It's not "I can't have it so nobody can" or "I couldn't have it back then, so nobody should have it now.". It is: "At the time, these were the rules, I ran the numbers, was responsible and ended up limiting my opportunities. Others, who were not responsible, now not only have more opportunities thanks to their degree but will also end up not paying for it". I'm sorry, but to me it feels extremely unfair that people who frivolously took loans will now end up being ahead of people who - at the same time - decided to be more financially responsible. You can't retroactively change the rules and expect people to take it quietly. The problem is made even worse because in the case of student loans, there is nothing to repossess. This has nothing to do with changing the rules now.
    - omegaworks 4y ago
      So you would rather your children continue to suffer the burden of a system that forces people into limited opportunities simply because you had to? So much for making the world a better place. The course that you took in life failed to teach you a fundamental truth about how a society grows.
      - dudul 4y ago
        Once again this is not the issue, either my post was unclear or you didn't read it carefully. I definitely do want the system to be fixed for future generations to not go through this. I do not want past generations to get a free pass. Loan forgiveness does nothing for future generations of students.
ohCh6zos 4y ago
I ended up working 60 hour weeks to not take out student loans. People talk about having a good time at college but all I remember is getting up at 4am to go to my first job, doing class all day and working my second job until 10pm. No spring breaks and no summers or holidays because I could work those hours to stay out of debt. It is hard to have much sympathy for people asking for student loan forgiveness. On the plus side I ended up graduating with $20 and no debt.
- zapdrive 4y ago
  I agree. I also remember working Friday/Saturday nights in the lab (as that was the only time I got to work on my projects), while everybody went out clubbing.
- zeku 4y ago
  Don't fall prey to these tales to yourself. I worked full time thru college for bad pay and still needed 30k in student loans to make it out with my degree. I went to a state school, nothing fancy. I hardly ever had fun in college, it was awful. The working world is waaaaaaay better for me. Not everyone who has loan debt just partied away on borrowed cash.
  - ohCh6zos 4y ago
    >The working world is waaaaaaay better for me. Same for me, working seems so easy by comparison. You're absolutely correct. The people in my life who are the most vocal about loan forgiveness treated their time at university like a party, but that is not a representative sample.
xur17 4y ago
And we're definitely in a spot right now where folks that can pay off their loan are holding off in case the US forgives all loans or something. A perverse incentive that is going to boost the number of student loans that are not paid off.
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  Not just that, but with interest rates at zero and inflation at 8.5% per year (and growing!) it is incredibly stupid to pay even a single penny of federal loan debt early, unless you have a really good need to polish your credit score. Federal student loan debts are getting cheaper by the minute, why pay more now?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Paying the minimum amount on time often does better for your credit score than paying the whole thing off, anyway. The credit score is a number based on you being able to reliably make payments.
halJordan 4y ago
How about the govt just obey the terms of the agreement they made? This program has been on the books since 2007. Anyone who didn’t use it made their own decision.
fuzzer37 4y ago
Me me me! What about me!?
- dudul 4y ago
  It is a case of "me me me" indeed. This is why people support canceling existing loans instead of changing the college tuition/loan system. They don't want to fix things for future generations, they want to fix their own problem with their own student loan and move on.

fortran77 4y ago

People in the US are always punished for being financially responsible.

nr2x 4y ago
More people are punished for being born poor - lead paint, air pollution, and crumbling schools don’t exactly lend themselves to upward mobility.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  Rewarding people who have worked for decades to climb out of that situation by lifting those who didn't do the same to the same financial position doesn't exactly encourage upward mobility, either.
  - omegaworks 4y ago
    So you would rather your neighbors be poor?
    - nr2x 4y ago
      Some people can’t accept the fact that nothing separates them from a common beggar beyond luck.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
31098347 4y ago
People who have paid their student loan debt are in exactly the same situation they were after this forgiveness than they were before: that is, they have no student loan debt. People in the US are not punished for being financially responsible. They are rewarded for taking risks, but not punished for being responsible. Very different.
- loeg 4y ago
  > People who have paid their student loan debt are in exactly the same situation they were after this forgiveness than they were before: that is, they have no student loan debt. You're missing the point, either deliberately or on accident. (Prefacing this with: we should keep and honor the terms of the existing PSLF program that students relied on when taking on debt.) There's no particular reason people with current loan debt, but ineligible for PSLF, should get a wealth transfer from other taxpayers with similar income, net worth, and expenses -- but no current student loan debt. > People in the US are not punished for being financially responsible. They are rewarded for taking risks, but not punished for being responsible. In fact, a hypothetical student debt forgiveness event like GP was discussing would punish those who responsibly paid off their student debts relative to similar-earning classmates who did not.
  - 31098347 4y ago
    >In fact, a hypothetical student debt forgiveness event like GP was discussing would punish those who responsibly paid off their student debts relative to similar-earning classmates who did not. Punish how? This word keeps being used but it does not fit any definition of punish I'm familiar with. I'm not being obtuse. Some background of where I'm coming from: Worked 40+hrs/week for $7.25 to $10/hr from 2005 to 2009 to get a four year degree from a state school. Graduated with $35,000 in student loan debt myself and about $20,000 in debt through Parent Plus loans. My parents sent me some money for rent on occasion, but overall -- that's how I di it. I also paid off all my student loans, and my parent plus loans. If someone graduated with $100,000 debt because they partied all the time, didn't work, and tomorrow Biden just gave them a tax-free forgiveness.... I am not punished by this. At all. It has no impact on my life whatsoever. I made the best choice I could make with my circumstances, and I paid off my loans because at the time that was the best way to secure my future. The day before the party-guy got his $100k write-off and the day after, I wake up in the same house, with the same car, with the same job, with the same spouse. My life doesn't change at all.
    - loeg 4y ago
      > If someone graduated with $100,000 debt because they partied all the time, didn't work, and tomorrow Biden just gave them a tax-free forgiveness.... > I am not punished by this. Imagine a fair and equitable spending program that distributed $100k to everyone. It's fair, and people with debt could use it to pay off their loans (you could even require it to be used to pay off student loans first). If your goal is to help people with loans pay off their debts, it is an effective program. It's also obviously fair. Then, tax 100% of the distribution for people without student loan balances. This is the step that imposes a punitive expense, relative to a fair program, on people without student loans. That's what these proposals look like. There's no particular reason recent college students as a group should be the sole recipients of a wealth transfer.
happytoexplain 4y ago
This attitude, as stated, is one of the fundamental evils, I think (the implication being "If I can't have it, nobody can", or, in this case, "If I didn't get it when it was relevant to me, nobody can"). In this case, the core grievance is valid ("I think there's a better way to address the problem"), but this expression of it makes the problem into the super common "us vs them" where "them" is defined by the terrible cultural obsession with the concept of "deserved" punishment and personal responsibility in an unqualified, absolutist manner ("He committed a crime, he deserves anything that happens", "He failed to pay a loan, he deserves anything that happens", "She had sex, she deserves anything that happens", etc).
- dudul 4y ago
  The way you present the problem is inaccurate to me. It's not "I can't have it so nobody can" or "I couldn't have it back then, so nobody should have it now.". It is: "At the time, these were the rules, I ran the numbers, was responsible and ended up limiting my opportunities. Others, who were not responsible, now not only have more opportunities thanks to their degree but will also end up not paying for it". I'm sorry, but to me it feels extremely unfair that people who frivolously took loans will now end up being ahead of people who - at the same time - decided to be more financially responsible. You can't retroactively change the rules and expect people to take it quietly. The problem is made even worse because in the case of student loans, there is nothing to repossess. This has nothing to do with changing the rules now.
  - omegaworks 4y ago
    So you would rather your children continue to suffer the burden of a system that forces people into limited opportunities simply because you had to? So much for making the world a better place. The course that you took in life failed to teach you a fundamental truth about how a society grows.
    - dudul 4y ago
      Once again this is not the issue, either my post was unclear or you didn't read it carefully. I definitely do want the system to be fixed for future generations to not go through this. I do not want past generations to get a free pass. Loan forgiveness does nothing for future generations of students.

ohCh6zos 4y ago

I ended up working 60 hour weeks to not take out student loans. People talk about having a good time at college but all I remember is getting up at 4am to go to my first job, doing class all day and working my second job until 10pm. No spring breaks and no summers or holidays because I could work those hours to stay out of debt. It is hard to have much sympathy for people asking for student loan forgiveness. On the plus side I ended up graduating with $20 and no debt.

zapdrive 4y ago
I agree. I also remember working Friday/Saturday nights in the lab (as that was the only time I got to work on my projects), while everybody went out clubbing.
zeku 4y ago
Don't fall prey to these tales to yourself. I worked full time thru college for bad pay and still needed 30k in student loans to make it out with my degree. I went to a state school, nothing fancy. I hardly ever had fun in college, it was awful. The working world is waaaaaaay better for me. Not everyone who has loan debt just partied away on borrowed cash.
- ohCh6zos 4y ago
  >The working world is waaaaaaay better for me. Same for me, working seems so easy by comparison. You're absolutely correct. The people in my life who are the most vocal about loan forgiveness treated their time at university like a party, but that is not a representative sample.

xur17 4y ago

And we're definitely in a spot right now where folks that can pay off their loan are holding off in case the US forgives all loans or something. A perverse incentive that is going to boost the number of student loans that are not paid off.

n8cpdx 4y ago
Not just that, but with interest rates at zero and inflation at 8.5% per year (and growing!) it is incredibly stupid to pay even a single penny of federal loan debt early, unless you have a really good need to polish your credit score. Federal student loan debts are getting cheaper by the minute, why pay more now?
- bombcar 4y ago
  Paying the minimum amount on time often does better for your credit score than paying the whole thing off, anyway. The credit score is a number based on you being able to reliably make payments.

halJordan 4y ago

How about the govt just obey the terms of the agreement they made? This program has been on the books since 2007. Anyone who didn’t use it made their own decision.

fuzzer37 4y ago

Me me me! What about me!?

dudul 4y ago
It is a case of "me me me" indeed. This is why people support canceling existing loans instead of changing the college tuition/loan system. They don't want to fix things for future generations, they want to fix their own problem with their own student loan and move on.