3 ms·

This is a prime example of what others were saying! We asked for an example of "good/useful/entertaining websites", and you are giving us technology demos, som

by theamk 5y ago

This is a prime example of what others were saying! We asked for an example of "good/useful/entertaining websites", and you are giving us technology demos, something that is only interesting to Web3 people. How about some real-life useful stuff? Don't give me youtube, show me Kurzgesagt channel. Don't talk about Javascript, DOM and browser optimization, show me Google Maps. Right now, all the stuff Web3 people produce is only interesting if you are into Web3 as well.

rglullis 5y ago
You are basically saying "these GNU people only produce things that are interesting for people into software stuff. Don't give me a C compiler, give me Visicalc." It's not because this is not "real-life" enough for you that it means that it is not worthy of being done.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > You are basically saying "these GNU people only produce things that are interesting for people into software stuff. Don't give me a C compiler, give me Visicalc." Yes we are. Yes, we re saying that. Because Unix was announced outside Bell Labs in 1973, and VisiCalc's first release was in 1979. It wasn't released on Unix, but that's really beside the point. Two years later it was available for basically any consumer system in existence. And on top of that there was a wealth of other software available on those systems. For example, vi and emacs are both from 1976. What you are saying is that "well, bitcoin paper is from 2008 (14 years ago), smart contracts are from 2014 (7 years ago), and we still have nothing even resembling VisiCalc, scratch that, we don't even have an equivalent of emacs or vi, `it's still early boohoo`"
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Visicalc was not free software. Unix is from the 70's, but Linux 1.0 is from 1994. The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > Visicalc was not free software... but Linux 1.0 is from 1994. Goalposts: shifted. The shift itself is also extremely funny because web3's entire premise is: "you pay for everything" > The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm. So, where are they? Where's web3's VisiCalc (1979), emacs (1976), vi (1976)? Douglas Engelbart's Mother of All Demos was in 1968 [1]. Oh, I know the answer. "Bitcoin paper was 14 years ago, smart contracts first proposed over 30 years ago, appeared on Ethereum 7 years ago, but it's still early for this new paradigm because Visicalc, Unix erm Linux, muble mumble" [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > Goalposts: shifted. Not at all. It was you and OP who asked for some kind of "killer app" from web3 as a way to justify its existence. My response is to say that this is an absurd ask. Not only is absurd, it already exists, you just prefer to ignore it. I may agree that Bitcoin as a currency is a failed experiment, there is no denying that the possibility of sending value across borders is the killer app already. "Oh, but BTC is volatile!". Yes, but I could in 2011 send money from the US to Brazil instantly without going through any international bank (buy in US exchange with USD, sell it in Brazilian exchanges in BRL, wire from the exchange to my brazilian bank) with minimal exposure to BTC volatility and at a lower cost than the fees charged by the banks. But I am sure you want to ignore that, or find a reason to say that "it doesn't count". I can not fight your own prejudices.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > Not at all. It was you and OP who asked for some kind of "killer app" from web3. My response is to say that this is an absurd ask. No. Your response is literally "you wouldn't ask Unix people to create VisiCalc instead of compilers", but they did, to which you responded "but it isn't free". > it already exists, you just prefer to ignore it. I may agree that Bitcoin as a currency is a failed experiment, there is no denying that the possibility of sending value across borders is the killer app already. You mean, the thing that people have been doing since the invention of borders is the killer app? > But I am sure you want to ignore that No, I'm not ignoring that. And the reason it doesn't count because original question was about web3, and if all web3 has to offer is sending money across borders, it's not web3, it's Western Union 2.0.
- theamk 5y ago
  Um, no -- the goal of GNU was to provide free software, so the analogy would be: "These GNU people only produce things for their weird philosophy. I don't care about freedom, give me software I can use." And guess what? In just 4 years since GNU started, they had "assembler, an almost finished portable optimizing C compiler (GCC), an editor (GNU Emacs), and various Unix utilities (such as ls, grep, awk, make and ld)" [0]. Something that could be used even if you don't care about Stallman or software freedom. If the goal of Web3 was to create blockchain libraries, no one would complain. But people, like you, say that Web3 has "useful applications" -- so what are those? Web3 is around for way long than 4 years, and it has much more people working too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Project
  - rglullis 5y ago
    I am pretty sure that Ethereum got their VM, Solidity and plenty of libraries to support the development of smart contracts in (much) less than 4 years. > so what are those? Make up your damn mind! What counts as "useful" for you, GCC or Google Maps? My guess is that you don't really care. You just want to take whatever answer you get and spin it in a way that pleases your biases and can score you some internet points. So please quit wasting my time and go find something better to do with your life. Come back when you have done something that actually matters to people.
    - theamk 5y ago
      What's hard in this? For a project whose target audience is "regular people", like the Web, the goal is the things which matter to people. Example: google maps. For a project whose target audience is "programmers", like the GNU, the goal is the things which matter to programmers. Example: emacs, GNU make. What is the target audience of crypto websites?
      - rglullis 5y ago
        You are defining the GNU project as something for "programmers", which is simply wrong. The point of GNU is to have a Free/Libre Operating system (beyond the kernel) for everyone. > What is the target audience of crypto websites? People that care about self-sovereignty. Anyone that can not /does not/wants not to rely on central authority as their only means to interact with others around the world.

by theamk 5y ago

rglullis 5y ago

You are basically saying "these GNU people only produce things that are interesting for people into software stuff. Don't give me a C compiler, give me Visicalc." It's not because this is not "real-life" enough for you that it means that it is not worthy of being done.

dmitriid 5y ago
> You are basically saying "these GNU people only produce things that are interesting for people into software stuff. Don't give me a C compiler, give me Visicalc." Yes we are. Yes, we re saying that. Because Unix was announced outside Bell Labs in 1973, and VisiCalc's first release was in 1979. It wasn't released on Unix, but that's really beside the point. Two years later it was available for basically any consumer system in existence. And on top of that there was a wealth of other software available on those systems. For example, vi and emacs are both from 1976. What you are saying is that "well, bitcoin paper is from 2008 (14 years ago), smart contracts are from 2014 (7 years ago), and we still have nothing even resembling VisiCalc, scratch that, we don't even have an equivalent of emacs or vi, `it's still early boohoo`"
- rglullis 5y ago
  Visicalc was not free software. Unix is from the 70's, but Linux 1.0 is from 1994. The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Visicalc was not free software... but Linux 1.0 is from 1994. Goalposts: shifted. The shift itself is also extremely funny because web3's entire premise is: "you pay for everything" > The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm. So, where are they? Where's web3's VisiCalc (1979), emacs (1976), vi (1976)? Douglas Engelbart's Mother of All Demos was in 1968 [1]. Oh, I know the answer. "Bitcoin paper was 14 years ago, smart contracts first proposed over 30 years ago, appeared on Ethereum 7 years ago, but it's still early for this new paradigm because Visicalc, Unix erm Linux, muble mumble" [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > Goalposts: shifted. Not at all. It was you and OP who asked for some kind of "killer app" from web3 as a way to justify its existence. My response is to say that this is an absurd ask. Not only is absurd, it already exists, you just prefer to ignore it. I may agree that Bitcoin as a currency is a failed experiment, there is no denying that the possibility of sending value across borders is the killer app already. "Oh, but BTC is volatile!". Yes, but I could in 2011 send money from the US to Brazil instantly without going through any international bank (buy in US exchange with USD, sell it in Brazilian exchanges in BRL, wire from the exchange to my brazilian bank) with minimal exposure to BTC volatility and at a lower cost than the fees charged by the banks. But I am sure you want to ignore that, or find a reason to say that "it doesn't count". I can not fight your own prejudices.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > Not at all. It was you and OP who asked for some kind of "killer app" from web3. My response is to say that this is an absurd ask. No. Your response is literally "you wouldn't ask Unix people to create VisiCalc instead of compilers", but they did, to which you responded "but it isn't free". > it already exists, you just prefer to ignore it. I may agree that Bitcoin as a currency is a failed experiment, there is no denying that the possibility of sending value across borders is the killer app already. You mean, the thing that people have been doing since the invention of borders is the killer app? > But I am sure you want to ignore that No, I'm not ignoring that. And the reason it doesn't count because original question was about web3, and if all web3 has to offer is sending money across borders, it's not web3, it's Western Union 2.0.
theamk 5y ago
Um, no -- the goal of GNU was to provide free software, so the analogy would be: "These GNU people only produce things for their weird philosophy. I don't care about freedom, give me software I can use." And guess what? In just 4 years since GNU started, they had "assembler, an almost finished portable optimizing C compiler (GCC), an editor (GNU Emacs), and various Unix utilities (such as ls, grep, awk, make and ld)" [0]. Something that could be used even if you don't care about Stallman or software freedom. If the goal of Web3 was to create blockchain libraries, no one would complain. But people, like you, say that Web3 has "useful applications" -- so what are those? Web3 is around for way long than 4 years, and it has much more people working too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Project
- rglullis 5y ago
  I am pretty sure that Ethereum got their VM, Solidity and plenty of libraries to support the development of smart contracts in (much) less than 4 years. > so what are those? Make up your damn mind! What counts as "useful" for you, GCC or Google Maps? My guess is that you don't really care. You just want to take whatever answer you get and spin it in a way that pleases your biases and can score you some internet points. So please quit wasting my time and go find something better to do with your life. Come back when you have done something that actually matters to people.
  - theamk 5y ago
    What's hard in this? For a project whose target audience is "regular people", like the Web, the goal is the things which matter to people. Example: google maps. For a project whose target audience is "programmers", like the GNU, the goal is the things which matter to programmers. Example: emacs, GNU make. What is the target audience of crypto websites?
    - rglullis 5y ago
      You are defining the GNU project as something for "programmers", which is simply wrong. The point of GNU is to have a Free/Libre Operating system (beyond the kernel) for everyone. > What is the target audience of crypto websites? People that care about self-sovereignty. Anyone that can not /does not/wants not to rely on central authority as their only means to interact with others around the world.