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I hate this kind of research. Scrape some data, observe some correlations, and then imprint your view of the world onto it to draw some ad-hoc conclusions. For
by karpierz 5y ago
I hate this kind of research. Scrape some data, observe some correlations, and then imprint your view of the world onto it to draw some ad-hoc conclusions.
For example:
> In this study, researchers asked two different groups of women to look at photos of different men and rate how strong the men looked. Results showed that the rated strength of a male body accounts for 70 percent of the variance in attractiveness (this is a massive effect size).
Except that if you read the paper, you find:
1. "Furthermore, for two of the three regressions, the attractiveness measure became a negative predictor once strength ratings were controlled for. In other words, there appear to be cues in the male body that accurately indicate strength (and are detected as such by raters), but nonetheless are neutral or negatively valued when assessing attractiveness."
2. You know what else is correlated with strength? Mental health, income, social status, etc. You know what the study doesn't at all control for?
3. It turns out if you only give people a photo and have them judge attractiveness, they'll only look at the physique of the person. This doesn't mean it's how people view attractiveness in real-world situations where you have all sorts of other data.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago> In other words, there appear to be cues in the male body that accurately indicate strength (and are detected as such by raters), but nonetheless are neutral or negatively valued when assessing attractiveness. hahaha yes I was wondering about that. Gym-based fitness and lifting specifically seem pretty trendy right now and a lot of the younger men I know lift and are very visibly fit. But anecdotally pretty much all of the strongest men I've known had guts to match their arms and if you saw them out of weight training context you'd probably say they looked more schlubby than than chiseled.
- PaulHoule 5y agoMy understanding is that a moderate amount of muscle makes both men and women more attractive. The average person is not terribly attracted to someone who looks like a pro bodybuilder (crazy low body fat) or powerlifter (probably a bit over fat.)
- melolife 5y agoYou'd have to be trying really hard (read: on roids) to be anywhere near a situation where adding muscle or cutting fat makes you less attractive.
- mywittyname 5y agoEven guys on roids are pretty attractive in my experience. I have a few friends who get random attention from women (up to and including in prompted touching) and all of them take steroids.
- User23 5y agoThis is absolutely false. But if a man wants an impressive physique naturally he’d best start about the time he hits puberty. The window of quad digit free testosterone isn’t open for long. If you hear about 30 or 40 something men putting on 20+ lbs of muscle in 6 months you can rest assured they’re supplementing androgens. However in these days of endocrine disruption and secular testosterone decline, it’s not unreasonable to assume that anyone dedicated enough has at least considered gear.
- User23 5y agoCompare for example the physique of a champion body builder with that of a heavyweight Olympic weightlifting gold medalist.
- The-Bus 5y agoOr either with a male gymnast.
- TimonKnigge 5y agoTo be fair, the Olympic weightlifting movements in their current form are pretty leg-dominant. In the past when there was a third event, the clean-and-press [1,2], athletes needed a lot more upper body strength. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nJrYPVJ88M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nJrYPVJ88M [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4l6eH-lmMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4l6eH-lmMA
- User23 5y agoIt’s a shame that the judges basically gave up on the press, because it truly is an impressive movement.
- torginus 5y agoThe study talks about 'rated' strength - how strong people thought an individual was, not how strong he actually was, I don't think this invalidates the conclusion that looking strong correlates very well with attractiveness.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoYou sometimes see this in professional fighting ability. At some point bigger muscles hinder mobility and take too much energy to fuel making the fighter tire more quickly. Chubby looking Fedor Emelianenko absolutely destroyed many gym bros in the MMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4XZqEkY9pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4XZqEkY9pg
- User23 5y agoTyson Fury also doesn’t exactly have chiseled abs, but he sure has staying power.
- VLM 5y agoBody builder is mostly a power lifter who periodically calorie-restricts to get a lower body fat percentage (there are differences in program design, but "in general", thats the major diff). Easier to gain muscle strength when you're not diet restricted, so power lifters always get stronger than the builders over time and people mostly pay attention to the people with the most experience. Note that the classic power law makes its appearance once again. True, the bell curves for lifters and builders have little overlap and most of the not-as-thin lifters will be much stronger than most of the thin builders. However, most of the time they are competing with the general population not with each other. Both experienced body builders and power lifters are significantly stronger than, perhaps, 99% of the male population, which honestly is not a very high bar to exceed. So due to power law effects when competing against 99% of men, the primary correlation with winning is strength. Yet when competing at the top of the pyramid, against other men in the top 1%, you are also correct that lower body fat percentage correlates with winning, because everyone "up there" is already pretty muscular to begin with. "The football team is the strongest and most successful group, but the individual on the football team whom is the most successful has the lowest body fat percentage inside his group".
- postsantum 5y agoMuscular guys much more probably post shirtless pics which is often a turn off
- lvass 5y agoMe too. I also suspect "mating success" is negatively correlated with eudaimonia these days, but who'd want to go there?
- musesum 5y ago> negatively correlated with eudaimonia wow, eudaimonia is my word for the day.
- scythmic_waves 5y agoYeah I had to look it up [1] > Eudaimonia (Greek: εὐδαιμονία [eu̯dai̯moníaː]; sometimes anglicized as eudaemonia or eudemonia, /juːdɪˈmoʊniə/) is a Greek word literally translating to the state or condition of 'good spirit', and which is commonly translated as 'happiness' or 'welfare'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y agoIt's an interesting word. Using it can either attract or repel your intended MOTAS. I doubt there's a middle ground :-)
- FerociousTimes 5y agoUttering the word Eudaimonia at the company of hot girls will definitely get you laid.
- jvanderbot 5y agoI'm always amazed by the over-thinking done by myself and people like me when discussing attracting mates. There's really only a few lessons I've learned in 20 years of dating, and they are: Take great care of yourself, cultivate socially-acceptable hobbies, and don't overthink it. Note: Dating is not tinder.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago> cultivate socially-acceptable hobbies Just wanted to pull this one out, because the socially acceptable hobbies have shifted a bit over time; "nerdy" hobbies are more commonplace these days. I mean my girlfriend is playing FFXIV downstairs at the moment. That said, model trains, while of course super cool, won't get you very far.
- curiousgal 5y ago> It turns out if you only give people a photo and have them judge attractiveness, they'll only look at the physique of the person. This doesn't mean it's how people view attractiveness in real-world situations where you have all sorts of other data. That's the case on Tinder though.
- karpierz 5y agoIf you read the paper, you'll notice that the photos they use look nothing like dating profile pictures. Namely: 1. The faces are covered with a black box. 2. Standardized clothing. 3. The photos are straight shots (and for one dataset, side shots) taken in a blank room. Dating profile pictures generally: 1. Prominently display your face. 2. Involve you wearing clothing indicative of how you present yourself. 3. Involve you in situations that are indicative of how you present yourself.
- toyg 5y agoTrue, except your point 1 from the second list is considered an anti-pattern - the typical recommendation is to have full-body pictures as much as possible.
- karpierz 5y agoTrue. I was trying to say that hiding your face in a dating profile picture is an easy way to get ignored, but I went too far with it.
- bradlys 5y agoHow else would you study the effects of muscularity in attraction? You have to control for the other factors. This study - as unlike real life as it is - indicates what we all know… being more muscular is generally good for men in attracting women. If it wasn’t true - why the fuck is everyone’s advice always to hit the gym and get some muscle? It’s because it’s known to have some effect. Yes, other things matter but muscles do too!! Stop trying to act like people don’t give a fuck about physical attraction! It’s the most important thing to starting a relationship! (It is an absolute deal breaker in our modern society to find your partner ugly!)
- belter 5y agoI guess one negative example is enough to disprove the theorem constructed in the paper :-) https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/naomi-campbell-and-flavio-briatore-attend-naomi-campbells-birthday-picture-id493481507?s=2048x2048 https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/naomi-campbell-and-flav...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- chefkoch 5y agomoney and status?
- Blackthorn 5y agoI saw in another HN comment that substack was just medium for wannabe philosophers and never before had I seen something so completely true on Hacker News.
- FerociousTimes 5y agoHis thesis is not convincing at all. Pseudo-intellectualism all the way!
- ohwellhere 5y agoI've been thinking of setting up a Substack and that comment fucking stung. :)
- goodpoint 5y agoOn top of that, the phrasing contains a ton of bias: "marriage markets", "improve romantic prospects" and so on. The four points in TFA are perfect examples of confusing correlation and causation.