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Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it the

Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? Hell - here's a paypal address for a bunch of guys who want to buy Ukraine a fighter jet - info@buymeafighterjet.com . Here's the donation page for the Kyiv school of economics https://kse.ua/support/donation https://kse.ua/support/donation - you may notice a small bit of text right above the crypto addresses for you donation - that small bit of text is a form for card transactions, 8 different ways of doing a bank transfer and a paypal address. So what has Cryptocurrency acheived here? You donate crypto to these charities, and then what happens? They convert it back into fiat currency to actually spend it. You've literally just added more steps to something that was already solved.

lui8906 4y ago
> Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? Which part of the claim are you refuting here? It is a fact that one can send very large sums of value between two addresses for a trivial transaction fee. This value can be swapped across other tokens with low slippage in the millions (denominated in USD). > What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? Hell - here's a paypal address for a bunch of guys who want to buy Ukraine a fighter jet - info@buymeafighterjet.com . Here's the donation page for the Kyiv school of economics https://kse.ua/support/donation https://kse.ua/support/donation - you may notice a small bit of text right above the crypto addresses for you donation - that small bit of text is a form for card transactions, 8 different ways of doing a bank transfer and a paypal address. I spoke with someone yesterday who lives in Nigeria, they were moving to Rwanda and needed to pay a deposit in advance. They were unable to pay via MoneyGram, Western Union etc. - one provider offered to handle the payment and requested many documents for a few days and in the end rejected the transfer. This person then had to send money to a friend who lived in the US who then forwarded it to Rwanda. This experience made the person feel isolated and outside of the system. This is an anecdote however my guess is if you think PayPal is "good enough" you don't live in a country that is marginalized by the status quo payment system. > So what has Cryptocurrency acheived here? You donate crypto to these charities, and then what happens? They convert it back into fiat currency to actually spend it. You've literally just added more steps to something that was already solved. So that's your take, global finance is a solved problem? No todos? No improvements needed we can pack it up? This is a stunning poverty of imagination in my estimation and a denial of the very real struggle many people face day to day in transacting.
- hef19898 4y ago
  For most trade questions, and that's what Ukraine is using the funds for, international finance is a solved problem. When it comes to tax evasion, large scale fraud, money laundering and so on it is definitely not. Unfortunately, crypto is only making the unsolved problems worse. And regarding the case with the guy in Nigeria: How much access do people in the developing world have to crypto? And don't start with the crap scam Sam Altman came up with.
  - mr_spothawk 4y ago
    HSBC? WellsFargo? what are you talking about crypto-related fraud without even a nod to these enormous organizations that have been convicted (multiple times) of fraud?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      I'll add Deutsche Bank, Cumex and other scandals. That's why I said fraud isn't solved in finance.
- Traster 4y ago
  >one can send very large sums of value between two addresses This is not the same thing as sending money to Ukraine. If I send money between two addresses, I've just sent money between 2 addresses. > This value can be swapped across other tokens with low slippage in the millions (denominated in USD). But not to actually buy anything in Ukraine. To do that you have to find someone with Fiat. As you see with all the other examples I gave you, what you've done is used the modern banking system to buy crypto currency - some bank transfer to a crypto exchange, send it from one address to another, and then left yourself with the problem of getting the money back out of crypto in Ukraine. Which as you'll see with almost all of the charitable giving in crypto to Ukraine, happens via the modern banking system, often with the direct involvement of the Ukrainian government. So it seems to me, that this entire thing about using Crypto for Ukraine is rubbish. And it seems like that to you too - because when I start interrogating the idea, the Crypto to Ukraine story morphs into a Rwandan sending money to Nigeria. My take is that Crypto in your example, was a worthless layer of complexity that doesn't solve the difficult problems of international banking, it solves the trivial bit in the middle.
sneak 4y ago
> What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? My cards don't work on PayPal and I don't keep money in banks (because they've robbed me without cause before). I can, however, donate with cryptocurrency without friction.
dogman144 4y ago
What has crypto provided: If paypal/bank transfers decide to exit that space, no more donations. Not the case with crypto. Also, weapons are getting bought directly with crypto in UKR, so your last point is not not necessarily true[0]. Question of course is has such exiting happened. Have payment processors threatened or actually left a space over somewhat subjective judgements? Answer in this case in recent years is yes: Assange, OnlyFans, Canadian Truckers, etc. Stating the above doesn't imply I support the above 3/etc., but it does show to me that based on which way the wind is blowing, payment censorship can and does happen. Assuming a payment processor/corporation will always be on your side ideologically isn't a great call. Popular German firms today were popular German firms under National Socialism. Or, are you going to tell me there isn't a single successful and well-regarded corporation today that wasn't enforcing segregation happily 60 years ago? I'm also not implying necessarily an equivalence in present day payment censorship to segregation. But I certainly standby that hedging your bets on your ideological views always aligning to corporate/govt entities and as such you don't have to consider payment censorship is a bad call. Crypto isn't perfect, and 999/1000 times I'll use a credit card, but its an important alternative. What happens when Climate Action groups get fed up, really start turning the screws on Exxon, and also rely on corporate infra (GSuite, Slack, Paypal) for running everything internally? Who does a payment processor side with - climate action groups perhaps doing not nice activism, or their ~largest client (ignore details here for a second) Exxon who is fed up with the activism and starts turning screws back? This has already happened with communications platforms via warehouse unionization, and QED Signal is pretty widely used. Are you saying it won't happen with payments, or there is at least a risk worth acknowledging? [0] https://time.com/6155209/ukraine-crypto/#:~:text=Ukraine%20has%20already%20spent,of%20Digital%20Transformation%20of%20Ukraine https://time.com/6155209/ukraine-crypto/#:~:text=Ukraine%20h....

lui8906 4y ago

> Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? Which part of the claim are you refuting here? It is a fact that one can send very large sums of value between two addresses for a trivial transaction fee. This value can be swapped across other tokens with low slippage in the millions (denominated in USD). > What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? Hell - here's a paypal address for a bunch of guys who want to buy Ukraine a fighter jet - info@buymeafighterjet.com . Here's the donation page for the Kyiv school of economics https://kse.ua/support/donation https://kse.ua/support/donation - you may notice a small bit of text right above the crypto addresses for you donation - that small bit of text is a form for card transactions, 8 different ways of doing a bank transfer and a paypal address. I spoke with someone yesterday who lives in Nigeria, they were moving to Rwanda and needed to pay a deposit in advance. They were unable to pay via MoneyGram, Western Union etc. - one provider offered to handle the payment and requested many documents for a few days and in the end rejected the transfer. This person then had to send money to a friend who lived in the US who then forwarded it to Rwanda. This experience made the person feel isolated and outside of the system. This is an anecdote however my guess is if you think PayPal is "good enough" you don't live in a country that is marginalized by the status quo payment system. > So what has Cryptocurrency acheived here? You donate crypto to these charities, and then what happens? They convert it back into fiat currency to actually spend it. You've literally just added more steps to something that was already solved. So that's your take, global finance is a solved problem? No todos? No improvements needed we can pack it up? This is a stunning poverty of imagination in my estimation and a denial of the very real struggle many people face day to day in transacting.

hef19898 4y ago
For most trade questions, and that's what Ukraine is using the funds for, international finance is a solved problem. When it comes to tax evasion, large scale fraud, money laundering and so on it is definitely not. Unfortunately, crypto is only making the unsolved problems worse. And regarding the case with the guy in Nigeria: How much access do people in the developing world have to crypto? And don't start with the crap scam Sam Altman came up with.
- mr_spothawk 4y ago
  HSBC? WellsFargo? what are you talking about crypto-related fraud without even a nod to these enormous organizations that have been convicted (multiple times) of fraud?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    I'll add Deutsche Bank, Cumex and other scandals. That's why I said fraud isn't solved in finance.
Traster 4y ago
>one can send very large sums of value between two addresses This is not the same thing as sending money to Ukraine. If I send money between two addresses, I've just sent money between 2 addresses. > This value can be swapped across other tokens with low slippage in the millions (denominated in USD). But not to actually buy anything in Ukraine. To do that you have to find someone with Fiat. As you see with all the other examples I gave you, what you've done is used the modern banking system to buy crypto currency - some bank transfer to a crypto exchange, send it from one address to another, and then left yourself with the problem of getting the money back out of crypto in Ukraine. Which as you'll see with almost all of the charitable giving in crypto to Ukraine, happens via the modern banking system, often with the direct involvement of the Ukrainian government. So it seems to me, that this entire thing about using Crypto for Ukraine is rubbish. And it seems like that to you too - because when I start interrogating the idea, the Crypto to Ukraine story morphs into a Rwandan sending money to Nigeria. My take is that Crypto in your example, was a worthless layer of complexity that doesn't solve the difficult problems of international banking, it solves the trivial bit in the middle.

sneak 4y ago

> What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? My cards don't work on PayPal and I don't keep money in banks (because they've robbed me without cause before). I can, however, donate with cryptocurrency without friction.

dogman144 4y ago

What has crypto provided: If paypal/bank transfers decide to exit that space, no more donations. Not the case with crypto. Also, weapons are getting bought directly with crypto in UKR, so your last point is not not necessarily true[0]. Question of course is has such exiting happened. Have payment processors threatened or actually left a space over somewhat subjective judgements? Answer in this case in recent years is yes: Assange, OnlyFans, Canadian Truckers, etc. Stating the above doesn't imply I support the above 3/etc., but it does show to me that based on which way the wind is blowing, payment censorship can and does happen. Assuming a payment processor/corporation will always be on your side ideologically isn't a great call. Popular German firms today were popular German firms under National Socialism. Or, are you going to tell me there isn't a single successful and well-regarded corporation today that wasn't enforcing segregation happily 60 years ago? I'm also not implying necessarily an equivalence in present day payment censorship to segregation. But I certainly standby that hedging your bets on your ideological views always aligning to corporate/govt entities and as such you don't have to consider payment censorship is a bad call. Crypto isn't perfect, and 999/1000 times I'll use a credit card, but its an important alternative. What happens when Climate Action groups get fed up, really start turning the screws on Exxon, and also rely on corporate infra (GSuite, Slack, Paypal) for running everything internally? Who does a payment processor side with - climate action groups perhaps doing not nice activism, or their ~largest client (ignore details here for a second) Exxon who is fed up with the activism and starts turning screws back? This has already happened with communications platforms via warehouse unionization, and QED Signal is pretty widely used. Are you saying it won't happen with payments, or there is at least a risk worth acknowledging? [0] https://time.com/6155209/ukraine-crypto/#:~:text=Ukraine%20has%20already%20spent,of%20Digital%20Transformation%20of%20Ukraine https://time.com/6155209/ukraine-crypto/#:~:text=Ukraine%20h....