4 ms·

I use a Framework and it's been fantastic. Even the fingerprint works "out of the box" (in quotes because in Arch Linux nothing is really out of the box... I ju

I use a Framework and it's been fantastic. Even the fingerprint works "out of the box" (in quotes because in Arch Linux nothing is really out of the box... I just had to install the right package). The only particularly disappointing thing is that the battery drains mega fast while suspended. This is something I might be able to tinker away, of course. And for what it's worth, non-functional suspend is basically par for the course for every Windows laptop I've ever owned. Also, I get the feeling that the Framework isn't your typical first product. It's built to be upgradable, so unless you find something fundamentally off-putting about the shape of the board, I'm not sure if you get much by waiting for the next generation. If they release a slimmer case, better keyboard, touch screen, or whatever, then you should be able to retrofit the new thing onto an old machine. Of course, the product is still young. Time will tell if this actually pans out.

radicalbyte 5y ago
> The only particularly disappointing thing is that the battery drains mega fast while suspended That's a killer - it's 2022 and Apple are still the only company who can get that right. I'd switch over to a Framework in an instant (for dual-boot Linux/Windows) if they could fix that.
- OJFord 5y ago
  I didn't mention it because I don't think it's a Framework issue (GP obviously doesn't have it) but rather my somehow messed up configuration of it, but the one problem I have with mine at the moment is that ten seconds or so after resuming (but not before) everything starts segfaulting, literally any command. And consequently logs don't get written to disk, so there's no record of it after I reboot it (with the physical button, necessarily) - so I'm having a hell of a time trying to debug it...
  - resonious 5y ago
    Oh wow. Indeed I haven't experienced this. How's the battery drain while suspended? I can't help but wonder if you get better suspend in exchange for...everything segfaulting.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      I haven't noticed that it's been bad, but then I've had more to worry about... I have the same CPU (and, I thought the same config...) on my work laptop and no problem with battery drain there; I use 'hybrid-sleep' (suspend to swap & RAM, resume from the latter if possible but tolerate power loss). It sounds like you might be using 'shallow' or 's2idle' (suspend to idle) sleep mode? You might need to write 'deep' to /sys/power/mem_sleep. (But don't listen to me, mine segfaults!)
      - resonious 5y ago
        That makes sense. Thanks for the tip, too - I might give it a shot. If I start getting segfaults then I'll know what happened!
- xvello 5y ago
  Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their platform, so every laptop with 11th+ generation Intel is plagued with this issue. Dell even put out an advisory that a sleeping laptop is not safe to store in a backpack anymore! AMD still supports S3 sleep on their Ryzen processors, but you'll need to check user feedback to make sure that the vendor did their job implementing it properly. In S3 sleep, the UEFI/BIOS is responsible for suspending and resuming hardware state. If not implemented correctly, you'll have high battery drain (components not suspended) or bugs on resume. Lenovo had dropped the ball on that front repeatedly, with the last two gens of T14 requiring BIOS updates to fix issues.
  - esaym 5y ago
    >Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their platform Wait what? How is that allowed?? What is the replacement?
    - xvello 5y ago
      > How is that allowed?? Looks like they can get away with it ¯\_O_/¯ > What is the replacement? S0ix sleep (named s2idle in Linux), where the OS is responsible for suspending / resuming all non-essential functions. Work is ongoing on the Kernel and drivers to improve it, but there is a long way to go (yay Monday mornings with an empty battery because the power draw is still > 1W). Even Windows is unable to make it correctly work without killing the battery overnight, so they now default to hibernating to disk after a couple of hours. This strategy is also possible with Linux, but making it work alongside full disk encryption is tricky: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dm-crypt/Swap_encryption#With_suspend-to-disk_support https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dm-crypt/Swap_encryption#Wi...
      - esaym 5y ago
        That sounds really awful...
  - lhl 5y ago
    While this is true for most vendors, this is not universally true. Lenovo specifically has an S3 BIOS option for some of their Tiger Lake Thinkpads (since they're Linux certified), although as you mention, it isn't always perfect: https://forums.lenovo.com/topic/view/27/5089860 https://forums.lenovo.com/topic/view/27/5089860 There can be lots of EC/BIOS issues for suspending, IMO it's one of the best arguments for going for a Linux-first vendor (Tuxedo, System 76, Slimbook, etc), as you know that their top priority should be to get basic stuff working on Linux.
- sofixa 5y ago
  Do they? With the default configuration my MBP M1 doesn't sleep properly ( or at all, clicking Sleep just does a screen flicker and nothing further, i have to disconnect power for it to actually go to sleep), draining the battery to ~10% after a weekend.
  - radicalbyte 5y ago
    Crazy, that's what I have always had with my windows laptops. My 2013 MBP 13 and M1 MBA work perfectly.
- entropie 5y ago
  Isn't this because MS (kind of?) forcing modern sleep mode? I bought a XPS end of 2019 and had a very bad experience forcing windows to use s3 mode. Actually I eventually stopped bothering with windows standby and let it suspend to ram now because 95% the time I use linux anyways and there s3 works fine. I was several times greeted with a very hot notebook at the morning, because windows decided to boot up and do system updates during the night while the notebook was supposed to sleep.
lexicality 5y ago
> The only particularly disappointing thing is that the battery drains mega fast while suspended Not particularly helpful to you necessarily, but I was able to solve the battery drain on windows by tweaking the deep sleep and hibernation settings and I'm now reasonably confident that if I close the lid on the laptop for the night it'll have a similar level of battery left when I open it in the morning. I think everything defaults to intel's "not actually sleep" sleep mode which destroys the battery like nobody's business
uberduper 5y ago
The new suspend mechanism is s0ix and it works quite well. My xps13 9310 (32gb version with the jank AX500) will even get to opportunistic s0ix with a recent 5.17 kernel. When I originally setup this laptop, I found that if I left the intel raid storage crap enabled, the mvd module would prevent s0ix/suspend. Switching to AHCI in the bios resolved this. https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-linux https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-li...
Freaken 5y ago
Just make it hibernate after X time (2 hours for me). There a repo of scripts on github (https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-formula https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-formula) where you might find information on how to do it. I'm sure it's not a 1 to 1 port to Arch, but it might get you started. Just note I had to disable secure boot for hibernate to work.

radicalbyte 5y ago

> The only particularly disappointing thing is that the battery drains mega fast while suspended That's a killer - it's 2022 and Apple are still the only company who can get that right. I'd switch over to a Framework in an instant (for dual-boot Linux/Windows) if they could fix that.

OJFord 5y ago
I didn't mention it because I don't think it's a Framework issue (GP obviously doesn't have it) but rather my somehow messed up configuration of it, but the one problem I have with mine at the moment is that ten seconds or so after resuming (but not before) everything starts segfaulting, literally any command. And consequently logs don't get written to disk, so there's no record of it after I reboot it (with the physical button, necessarily) - so I'm having a hell of a time trying to debug it...
- resonious 5y ago
  Oh wow. Indeed I haven't experienced this. How's the battery drain while suspended? I can't help but wonder if you get better suspend in exchange for...everything segfaulting.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    I haven't noticed that it's been bad, but then I've had more to worry about... I have the same CPU (and, I thought the same config...) on my work laptop and no problem with battery drain there; I use 'hybrid-sleep' (suspend to swap & RAM, resume from the latter if possible but tolerate power loss). It sounds like you might be using 'shallow' or 's2idle' (suspend to idle) sleep mode? You might need to write 'deep' to /sys/power/mem_sleep. (But don't listen to me, mine segfaults!)
    - resonious 5y ago
      That makes sense. Thanks for the tip, too - I might give it a shot. If I start getting segfaults then I'll know what happened!
xvello 5y ago
Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their platform, so every laptop with 11th+ generation Intel is plagued with this issue. Dell even put out an advisory that a sleeping laptop is not safe to store in a backpack anymore! AMD still supports S3 sleep on their Ryzen processors, but you'll need to check user feedback to make sure that the vendor did their job implementing it properly. In S3 sleep, the UEFI/BIOS is responsible for suspending and resuming hardware state. If not implemented correctly, you'll have high battery drain (components not suspended) or bugs on resume. Lenovo had dropped the ball on that front repeatedly, with the last two gens of T14 requiring BIOS updates to fix issues.
- esaym 5y ago
  >Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their platform Wait what? How is that allowed?? What is the replacement?
  - xvello 5y ago
    > How is that allowed?? Looks like they can get away with it ¯\_O_/¯ > What is the replacement? S0ix sleep (named s2idle in Linux), where the OS is responsible for suspending / resuming all non-essential functions. Work is ongoing on the Kernel and drivers to improve it, but there is a long way to go (yay Monday mornings with an empty battery because the power draw is still > 1W). Even Windows is unable to make it correctly work without killing the battery overnight, so they now default to hibernating to disk after a couple of hours. This strategy is also possible with Linux, but making it work alongside full disk encryption is tricky: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dm-crypt/Swap_encryption#With_suspend-to-disk_support https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dm-crypt/Swap_encryption#Wi...
    - esaym 5y ago
      That sounds really awful...
- lhl 5y ago
  While this is true for most vendors, this is not universally true. Lenovo specifically has an S3 BIOS option for some of their Tiger Lake Thinkpads (since they're Linux certified), although as you mention, it isn't always perfect: https://forums.lenovo.com/topic/view/27/5089860 https://forums.lenovo.com/topic/view/27/5089860 There can be lots of EC/BIOS issues for suspending, IMO it's one of the best arguments for going for a Linux-first vendor (Tuxedo, System 76, Slimbook, etc), as you know that their top priority should be to get basic stuff working on Linux.
sofixa 5y ago
Do they? With the default configuration my MBP M1 doesn't sleep properly ( or at all, clicking Sleep just does a screen flicker and nothing further, i have to disconnect power for it to actually go to sleep), draining the battery to ~10% after a weekend.
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  Crazy, that's what I have always had with my windows laptops. My 2013 MBP 13 and M1 MBA work perfectly.
entropie 5y ago
Isn't this because MS (kind of?) forcing modern sleep mode? I bought a XPS end of 2019 and had a very bad experience forcing windows to use s3 mode. Actually I eventually stopped bothering with windows standby and let it suspend to ram now because 95% the time I use linux anyways and there s3 works fine. I was several times greeted with a very hot notebook at the morning, because windows decided to boot up and do system updates during the night while the notebook was supposed to sleep.

lexicality 5y ago

> The only particularly disappointing thing is that the battery drains mega fast while suspended Not particularly helpful to you necessarily, but I was able to solve the battery drain on windows by tweaking the deep sleep and hibernation settings and I'm now reasonably confident that if I close the lid on the laptop for the night it'll have a similar level of battery left when I open it in the morning. I think everything defaults to intel's "not actually sleep" sleep mode which destroys the battery like nobody's business

uberduper 5y ago

The new suspend mechanism is s0ix and it works quite well. My xps13 9310 (32gb version with the jank AX500) will even get to opportunistic s0ix with a recent 5.17 kernel. When I originally setup this laptop, I found that if I left the intel raid storage crap enabled, the mvd module would prevent s0ix/suspend. Switching to AHCI in the bios resolved this. https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-linux https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-li...

Freaken 5y ago

Just make it hibernate after X time (2 hours for me). There a repo of scripts on github (https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-formula https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-formula) where you might find information on how to do it. I'm sure it's not a 1 to 1 port to Arch, but it might get you started. Just note I had to disable secure boot for hibernate to work.