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You cannot solve contract/legal problems and wrong transactions through decentralization. You can't also make a democratic system act on every conflict. You ass

You cannot solve contract/legal problems and wrong transactions through decentralization. You can't also make a democratic system act on every conflict. You assign a central authority to act on them and you select that authority through a democratic process, which is what we already have. - I want to have a beer! - ok, scan this QR, and accept the transaction - there you go! - thank you, here are your 5 beers - oh, did I just pay for 5? I wanted 1! can you refund me and take these back? - no can do! pretty sure you said 5! You can convince the 51% to cancel the transaction or you can call the police. What would you do? Bitcoin may fix some friction issues if it's integrated into the current financial system, but it'd then just be a very small cog in a giant machine. You may not agree, it may also be that you do not want to agree, and it's ok. Now if you start calling people toxic because they state what's obvious for them, you can never get a proper discussion. It's also a little red flag that should make you question if you are in a cult.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
No crypto software I know makes a transaction based on a QR code scan. It always shows you the address, and then you have to enter the total in the check and then complete the transaction. If you paid 5x more than was asked, have your 5 beers.
stavros 5y ago
How is this different from cash?
- egeozcan 5y ago
  I wasn't specifically giving a btc example, qr code can also be apple pay or anything like that. It's just that in the case of btc, there's no central authority to cancel the transaction. You need a court order to force the bar to manually send the money back to you. The bank cannot freeze the funds. Enforcement is crippled. If this is not a reputable business (unlikely for a bar and very unlikely for a small sum like that but bear with me), it's way more likely to lose your money. This is one of the reasons why money transactions are hard and costly. You cannot pretend that a blockchain fixes all that.
  - stavros 5y ago
    Yes but all these things are features to me. I like cash for small purchases, and I like, say, Monero for the same reasons. If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction. in other words, you aren't poor enough for the loss of 50 € to mean that you are going to have less food this month and won't be late on your rent because of it.
      - stavros 5y ago
        Ah yes, banks, the champions of the poor man.
        Broken_Hippo 5y ago
        It isn't that banks are looking out for poor people. That should be obvious. But poor people do use banking services and in both countries I've lived in (US and Norway), there are built in consumer protections. They aren't perfect, but they are stronger than you get with crypto. You can often resolve a payment issue, for example. FDIC protection in the US covers most folks (most folks don't save more than whatever the limit is now). And this protection, even if imperfect, helps folks have a little more stability in their lives.
        stavros 5y ago
        But cryptocurrency is the same as with cash. Yes, we need to teach people that they shouldn't send cryptocurrency to some shady "investment" company, just as they shouldn't give cash to a guy in a van promising them returns, but the risk profile is exactly the same as with cash, which people have been using successfully for centuries.
- anhner 5y ago
  ...that's what he was saying? What do we need crypto for if it has the same drawbacks as cash? (and also others on the side, like huge fees)
telomero22 5y ago
What kind of example is this? Try that with a credit card transaction and you'll get kicked out for ordering 5 beers and only trying to pay 1. :D
Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
Same could be said about paying in cash. Order a beer, hand over a 20 expecting change, bartender gives you 5 beers and no change. In that case you can convince the bartender (who allready said no can do) or call the police (though it might be a civil issue rather than criminal, so calling the cops won't produce any results and you will have to take it up with them via the civil court system). BUt I get your point, I used some automated "pay by crypto" checkout system a few months ago, their automated system never picked up the transaction even though the coins where in their wallet, they first blamed me and said they would refund if I paid the fee's which were not in a coin I had on hand so had to do some giggling about to get this small amount (was like < $1 of coins so it was easier to just pay this fee than it was to complain), then after they recieved this fee they said they would return the funds minus 8% as that 8% was their "handling fee". NOW they did return all the funds I transfered so maybe that 2nd email was just a canned message but it was still a jab to the gut them saying "yeah, our system messed up and we want you to pay to fix it".
- soco 5y ago
  On the other hand, I had over time a few credit card disputes, and the existing system worked just fine.
  - Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
    My bank handles card disputes very well imo. Basically I can start the dispute via my banking app and based on your past history the bank will front you the refund while they wait out the dispute. Things like that happen when you have an intermediate handling the transaction, and personally for my day to day transactions I'm happy with using the existing banking system BUT the existing system does have flaws in my opinion. For one example, sex workers, banks do not like touching that subject. Crypto removes the gatekeepers to electronic payment transfers, well it does until you want to convert it back to fiat and your crypto gets blacklisted by the exchanges. But me personally, I don't think crypto is the answer, but kicking banks into understanding that adults are adults and don't need banks holding the reins. (Granted payments in the adult industry are some of the most charged back which becomes a pain for payment providers).
oauea 5y ago
Updated that script for you: - I want to have a beer! - ok, scan this QR, and accept the transaction - there you go! - thank you, here are your 5 beers - oh, did I just pay for 5? I wanted 1! can you refund me and take these back? - sure! can I see your QR code? - there you go! - thank you, here is your 1 beer and refund Note that I'm totally burnt on bitcoin for practical reasons, but your example is just silly.
- egeozcan 5y ago
  Maybe you shouldn't worry too much about the actual example? It's just a conflict to make the point stand, we are not discussing my creative writing here, so don't hurt my feelings for no reason please! :)

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

No crypto software I know makes a transaction based on a QR code scan. It always shows you the address, and then you have to enter the total in the check and then complete the transaction. If you paid 5x more than was asked, have your 5 beers.

stavros 5y ago

How is this different from cash?

egeozcan 5y ago
I wasn't specifically giving a btc example, qr code can also be apple pay or anything like that. It's just that in the case of btc, there's no central authority to cancel the transaction. You need a court order to force the bar to manually send the money back to you. The bank cannot freeze the funds. Enforcement is crippled. If this is not a reputable business (unlikely for a bar and very unlikely for a small sum like that but bear with me), it's way more likely to lose your money. This is one of the reasons why money transactions are hard and costly. You cannot pretend that a blockchain fixes all that.
- stavros 5y ago
  Yes but all these things are features to me. I like cash for small purchases, and I like, say, Monero for the same reasons. If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction. in other words, you aren't poor enough for the loss of 50 € to mean that you are going to have less food this month and won't be late on your rent because of it.
    - stavros 5y ago
      Ah yes, banks, the champions of the poor man.
      - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
        It isn't that banks are looking out for poor people. That should be obvious. But poor people do use banking services and in both countries I've lived in (US and Norway), there are built in consumer protections. They aren't perfect, but they are stronger than you get with crypto. You can often resolve a payment issue, for example. FDIC protection in the US covers most folks (most folks don't save more than whatever the limit is now). And this protection, even if imperfect, helps folks have a little more stability in their lives.
        stavros 5y ago
        But cryptocurrency is the same as with cash. Yes, we need to teach people that they shouldn't send cryptocurrency to some shady "investment" company, just as they shouldn't give cash to a guy in a van promising them returns, but the risk profile is exactly the same as with cash, which people have been using successfully for centuries.
anhner 5y ago
...that's what he was saying? What do we need crypto for if it has the same drawbacks as cash? (and also others on the side, like huge fees)

telomero22 5y ago

What kind of example is this? Try that with a credit card transaction and you'll get kicked out for ordering 5 beers and only trying to pay 1. :D

Crosseye_Jack 5y ago

Same could be said about paying in cash. Order a beer, hand over a 20 expecting change, bartender gives you 5 beers and no change. In that case you can convince the bartender (who allready said no can do) or call the police (though it might be a civil issue rather than criminal, so calling the cops won't produce any results and you will have to take it up with them via the civil court system). BUt I get your point, I used some automated "pay by crypto" checkout system a few months ago, their automated system never picked up the transaction even though the coins where in their wallet, they first blamed me and said they would refund if I paid the fee's which were not in a coin I had on hand so had to do some giggling about to get this small amount (was like < $1 of coins so it was easier to just pay this fee than it was to complain), then after they recieved this fee they said they would return the funds minus 8% as that 8% was their "handling fee". NOW they did return all the funds I transfered so maybe that 2nd email was just a canned message but it was still a jab to the gut them saying "yeah, our system messed up and we want you to pay to fix it".

soco 5y ago
On the other hand, I had over time a few credit card disputes, and the existing system worked just fine.
- Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
  My bank handles card disputes very well imo. Basically I can start the dispute via my banking app and based on your past history the bank will front you the refund while they wait out the dispute. Things like that happen when you have an intermediate handling the transaction, and personally for my day to day transactions I'm happy with using the existing banking system BUT the existing system does have flaws in my opinion. For one example, sex workers, banks do not like touching that subject. Crypto removes the gatekeepers to electronic payment transfers, well it does until you want to convert it back to fiat and your crypto gets blacklisted by the exchanges. But me personally, I don't think crypto is the answer, but kicking banks into understanding that adults are adults and don't need banks holding the reins. (Granted payments in the adult industry are some of the most charged back which becomes a pain for payment providers).

oauea 5y ago

Updated that script for you: - I want to have a beer! - ok, scan this QR, and accept the transaction - there you go! - thank you, here are your 5 beers - oh, did I just pay for 5? I wanted 1! can you refund me and take these back? - sure! can I see your QR code? - there you go! - thank you, here is your 1 beer and refund Note that I'm totally burnt on bitcoin for practical reasons, but your example is just silly.

egeozcan 5y ago
Maybe you shouldn't worry too much about the actual example? It's just a conflict to make the point stand, we are not discussing my creative writing here, so don't hurt my feelings for no reason please! :)