4 ms·

There is a difference between elites and just about anyone. The lack of labour to 'clean' or wait tables is not because locals don't want to do it. Is because

There is a difference between elites and just about anyone. The lack of labour to 'clean' or wait tables is not because locals don't want to do it. Is because locals don't want to do it in the exploitive conditions they have to work. Raise the conditions/pay and they will want to do it. 'Poor' immigrants take those jobs because it is better than what they have back home, but we shouldn't aim to exploit immigrants to keep our cheap shit. Pretty much all over europe fruit picking companies/owners exploit this. No-one in their right mind want to work for less than minimum wage, temporary contracts, 12hour days under the sun skirting any kind of health and safety laws. So they go and pick poorer people from other countries where it is a step up from where they are from. Think the covid lockdowns proved pretty much that. In my country, owners complain they don't have people to work in turism/service industry and beg beg beg government for more open borders. And of course no-one wants to. Unpaid work hours, salaries paid under the table so owners don't pay employment taxes on that. No labour security because 'who needs a contract'. So now we have a bunch of pakistani people (nothing against them), that hardly speak the language working in shitty conditions, because owners don't want to pay the required legally mandated salaries + work conditions. I am far in the income ladder compared to 'these jobs', but I want the people working them to have a decent standard of living, higher salaries and better work conditions, but that will never work if we keep exploiting 'poor' immigrants with open door policies.

FerociousTimes 5y ago
Not only the unscrupulous business owners are guilty of exploiting these poor migrants but there are other accomplices like the government turning a blind eye to these practices as they get to benefit from the exploitation of cheap migrant labor but also the general public is an accomplice with their apathy and indifference to the suffering of these workers and also, and I hate to do this, by reframing the debate in nativist terms like you did here. The solution should be to offer a decent immigration path/track for these workers that balances all the interests of concerned stakeholders, and also make sense from an economic standpoint because sometimes you can't make a business case for paying high rates for low-skilled jobs as this might weigh negatively on profitability and drive some establishments out of business.
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  Yes, governments are accomplices in this, and yes, as I mentioned, we want cheap shit and turn a blind eye. But we have laws like minimum wage, hours of work per week, social security contributions, health and safety etc. I don't care if it is a white or a black or a green man from mars that does a job, but I want him or her to have the protections we establish by law. The only reason there is these 'imports' of low skilled poor people is because business men know they can get around these laws and exploit them since most of them don't know better. Wether is abiding by the law makes a business go out of business, then so be it. You may disagree with the minimum wage, the safety laws, and I encourage anyone to vote in accordance to that, but as soon as they are laws, either a business can work following them, or should not exist. We don't go and say 'well, loansharks can only exist by breaking some kneecaps, otherwise the business model wouldnt work' and let them do it. And I am pissed because I saw these things first hand many times. Even called the respective government entities to expose the situation, and nothing was ever done, because as you said, governments benefit from this also. For example (and I saw this happening more than once), minimum wage here is around 700 euros. Of this, the employee pays 70 to social security getting net 630 (minimum wage doesn't pay taxes basically). The employer has to pay around 200 euros on 'extras' to social security and other things. So it costs around 900 euros. I saw foreigners that didn't know better saying they wanted to get 500 at the end of the month. Employer paid them in cash 500 at the end of the month illegally, no contributions to social security or unemployment. Working more than 40 hours per week and id something happens to employee, he is fucked, and for this privilege, the owner saves 400 euros per month. So no, I don't want even more open borders to allow more and more exploitation. edit: just today this comes up https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/769046/escravatura-de-200-moldavos-em-serpa-denunciada-ao-mp?seccao=Portugal_i https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/769046/escravatura-de-200-mol... 200 moldovians in slave conditions, a quote: > When asked why he continued to work like this, the Moldovan migrant explained that his boss did not give him money because he withheld it and deducted it to Social Security to guarantee European citizenship.

FerociousTimes 5y ago

Not only the unscrupulous business owners are guilty of exploiting these poor migrants but there are other accomplices like the government turning a blind eye to these practices as they get to benefit from the exploitation of cheap migrant labor but also the general public is an accomplice with their apathy and indifference to the suffering of these workers and also, and I hate to do this, by reframing the debate in nativist terms like you did here. The solution should be to offer a decent immigration path/track for these workers that balances all the interests of concerned stakeholders, and also make sense from an economic standpoint because sometimes you can't make a business case for paying high rates for low-skilled jobs as this might weigh negatively on profitability and drive some establishments out of business.

odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
Yes, governments are accomplices in this, and yes, as I mentioned, we want cheap shit and turn a blind eye. But we have laws like minimum wage, hours of work per week, social security contributions, health and safety etc. I don't care if it is a white or a black or a green man from mars that does a job, but I want him or her to have the protections we establish by law. The only reason there is these 'imports' of low skilled poor people is because business men know they can get around these laws and exploit them since most of them don't know better. Wether is abiding by the law makes a business go out of business, then so be it. You may disagree with the minimum wage, the safety laws, and I encourage anyone to vote in accordance to that, but as soon as they are laws, either a business can work following them, or should not exist. We don't go and say 'well, loansharks can only exist by breaking some kneecaps, otherwise the business model wouldnt work' and let them do it. And I am pissed because I saw these things first hand many times. Even called the respective government entities to expose the situation, and nothing was ever done, because as you said, governments benefit from this also. For example (and I saw this happening more than once), minimum wage here is around 700 euros. Of this, the employee pays 70 to social security getting net 630 (minimum wage doesn't pay taxes basically). The employer has to pay around 200 euros on 'extras' to social security and other things. So it costs around 900 euros. I saw foreigners that didn't know better saying they wanted to get 500 at the end of the month. Employer paid them in cash 500 at the end of the month illegally, no contributions to social security or unemployment. Working more than 40 hours per week and id something happens to employee, he is fucked, and for this privilege, the owner saves 400 euros per month. So no, I don't want even more open borders to allow more and more exploitation. edit: just today this comes up https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/769046/escravatura-de-200-moldavos-em-serpa-denunciada-ao-mp?seccao=Portugal_i https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/769046/escravatura-de-200-mol... 200 moldovians in slave conditions, a quote: > When asked why he continued to work like this, the Moldovan migrant explained that his boss did not give him money because he withheld it and deducted it to Social Security to guarantee European citizenship.