5 ms·

Can't happen fast enough. I'm unhappy about the weight SAT (and ACT) scores are given in the application process because I will be a (junior level) transfer st

Can't happen fast enough. I'm unhappy about the weight SAT (and ACT) scores are given in the application process because I will be a (junior level) transfer student and I see even less relevance of the SAT in my position when it's already fairly useless for freshmen. I find it mindboggling and frustrating to think that half the colleges I am applying to are requiring such a useless thing while the others are doing the right thing by not even caring for such a score. In college, I have taken math classes above second semester calculus. I have fulfilled basic general education requirements. I have fulfilled more than expected of a junior-level transfer student in classes related to my major. All of those credits should overwhelmingly trump what I can do in a few hours with a pencil and a calculator for something laughable in comparison. To the point that taking such a test would be unnecessary to point out what I am capable of doing: honestly, is how well I do on some trivial algebra (lazily done entirely with my ti-89) or writing going to tell you how appealing of a computer science major I will be? I'm pretty sure you can safely ignore the SAT and take a look at my classes, grades, experience and recommendations to make a better guess. And the same should apply to high school students as well. Not to say I did not do well on the last SAT exam I took (on the contrary, because the material is so basic), but why I had to spend the money and waste the time to do so in the first place just stinks. I have taken prep classes way back in high school, and I've tutored people in turn. The article is spot on when it says that students are spending time gaming the SAT. (On a slightly different sidenote, I don't think the SAT is the only cause for high school classes (at least in the US) being so focused on a small curricula, I believe that's more directly caused by NCLB and tying school performance on exams to funding. But that's a whole different rant/issue in itself.)

DabAsteroid 18y ago
In college, I have taken math classes above second semester calculus. ... All of those [college] credits should overwhelmingly trump what I can do in a few hours with a pencil and a calculator for something laughable in comparison. Generally, the SAT is administered to high-school students, not college students. It's purpose is to predict the performance of those high-school students, if and when they are in college. The point of any test is to improve predictiveness of outcome. The SAT is a type of social test, and its purpose is to predict a certain social outcome -- student performance in college. Not to say I did not do well on the last SAT exam I took (on the contrary, because the material is so basic), but why I had to spend the money and waste the time to do so in the first place just stinks. The SAT costs less and is faster than testing via college credits. Would you test the inflation-level of tires by driving a car around and measuring its performance (efficiency, road-handling, straight-line traction, smoothness over bumps, road noise, tire-temperature-rise, etc.) because it is cheaper and easier than to "spend the money and waste the time" using a tire-pressure meter instead? The article is spot on when it says that students are spending time gaming the SAT. One way around that might be to give them working-memory and reaction-time/decision-time tests, instead. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22reaction+time%22+jensen+%22g+factor%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22reaction+time%22+jensen+%2... http://www.google.com/search?q=%22working+memory%22+%22g+factor%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22working+memory%22+%22g+fac... One of the purest tests of working memory is the Letter-Number Sequencing subtest of the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS). It consists of simply reordering (in one's head) strings of random letters and numbers. http://www.google.com/search?q=wais+letter+number http://www.google.com/search?q=wais+letter+number
- silencio 18y ago
  That is my point. I'm not a high school student. But half the colleges I am applying to for junior transfer want an SAT score. When I have already taken a whole ton of college classes, what is the point? I've been told by many people like you that it's used to predict how well someone performs in college..well, they have over two years and dozens and dozens of credits and classes to back that up for me. Yet they STILL want the score. And yes, the SAT/ACT may still serve a purpose for many students, but I believe its importance is overemphasized. Oddly enough, I would prefer something like WAIS to the SAT. Having taken it before, it's vastly more enjoyable (I also spent most of my k-12 education in a gifted school requiring a certain IQ, regardless of what that measures and how useful it is overall.)
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    When I have already taken a whole ton of college classes, what is the point? Did you take the SAT after you had completed a ton of college classes? [Edit: abridged]
    - silencio 18y ago
      Yup. Had no choice. The second to last time I took the SAT was a few years back when I was still in like junior high and they were offering the one out of 1600. All the schools wanting SAT scores want the new one out of 2400 now. Ergo, I needed to retake it (well, more specifically, take the newer version of the exam) for applications.
smanek 18y ago
If the SAT was so easy (and I agree that it is), what's the big deal? It's 3 hours of your life and costs under 50 bucks (and they waive the fee if you can show need). You didn't have to spend a huge amount of time studying or money taking prep courses. Your rant reminds me of professional programmers who get insulted when asked to do fizz-buzz during an interview. What's the big deal? It's the quickest and easiest way to weed out the riff-raff. In my experience, the ones who get insulted are usually the ones who can't do it.
- KevinMS 18y ago
  Some people that score well on interview tests are the worst fuckuppited programmers you'd never want to work with. And some who blow it are a pleasure to work with. Those little tests don't account for documentation, architecture, scalability, readability, refactoring, etc. I don't give a damn if somebody can't come up with some little algorithm during the pressure of a test that could have easily just googled for, and also what is the best practices for that algorithm. You are probably somebody new to the industry.
  - smanek 18y ago
    Like I said, simple tests always have false positives. Of course a lot of poor coders can do fizz buzz. But, if you can't code fizz buzz in under five minutes, I guarantee you are a bad coder. It's a simple way to eliminate half your applicants. Sounds good to me.
  - silencio 18y ago
    That's exactly how I feel. Fizzbuzz and the SAT alike are to me just filling some very limited uses where they would come in handy - like if you ever DID ask fizzbuzz from an interviewee you'd at most be able to weed out people who don't know what the heck they're talking about, like some moron applying for a Java position that knows no Java. But to me the difference is that the SAT is like fizzbuzz applied to everyone regardless...if you had an interviewee that you knew in every way that fizzbuzz would be a waste of time (even that tiny amount of time) because they've proved themselves in some other way, you wouldn't ask. That's pretty much all I'm wanting. Some things are just not worth the effort because there's plenty else to see who they are and what they are capable of doing.

DabAsteroid 18y ago

In college, I have taken math classes above second semester calculus. ... All of those [college] credits should overwhelmingly trump what I can do in a few hours with a pencil and a calculator for something laughable in comparison. Generally, the SAT is administered to high-school students, not college students. It's purpose is to predict the performance of those high-school students, if and when they are in college. The point of any test is to improve predictiveness of outcome. The SAT is a type of social test, and its purpose is to predict a certain social outcome -- student performance in college. Not to say I did not do well on the last SAT exam I took (on the contrary, because the material is so basic), but why I had to spend the money and waste the time to do so in the first place just stinks. The SAT costs less and is faster than testing via college credits. Would you test the inflation-level of tires by driving a car around and measuring its performance (efficiency, road-handling, straight-line traction, smoothness over bumps, road noise, tire-temperature-rise, etc.) because it is cheaper and easier than to "spend the money and waste the time" using a tire-pressure meter instead? The article is spot on when it says that students are spending time gaming the SAT. One way around that might be to give them working-memory and reaction-time/decision-time tests, instead. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22reaction+time%22+jensen+%22g+factor%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22reaction+time%22+jensen+%2... http://www.google.com/search?q=%22working+memory%22+%22g+factor%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22working+memory%22+%22g+fac... One of the purest tests of working memory is the Letter-Number Sequencing subtest of the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS). It consists of simply reordering (in one's head) strings of random letters and numbers. http://www.google.com/search?q=wais+letter+number http://www.google.com/search?q=wais+letter+number

silencio 18y ago
That is my point. I'm not a high school student. But half the colleges I am applying to for junior transfer want an SAT score. When I have already taken a whole ton of college classes, what is the point? I've been told by many people like you that it's used to predict how well someone performs in college..well, they have over two years and dozens and dozens of credits and classes to back that up for me. Yet they STILL want the score. And yes, the SAT/ACT may still serve a purpose for many students, but I believe its importance is overemphasized. Oddly enough, I would prefer something like WAIS to the SAT. Having taken it before, it's vastly more enjoyable (I also spent most of my k-12 education in a gifted school requiring a certain IQ, regardless of what that measures and how useful it is overall.)
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  When I have already taken a whole ton of college classes, what is the point? Did you take the SAT after you had completed a ton of college classes? [Edit: abridged]
  - silencio 18y ago
    Yup. Had no choice. The second to last time I took the SAT was a few years back when I was still in like junior high and they were offering the one out of 1600. All the schools wanting SAT scores want the new one out of 2400 now. Ergo, I needed to retake it (well, more specifically, take the newer version of the exam) for applications.

smanek 18y ago

If the SAT was so easy (and I agree that it is), what's the big deal? It's 3 hours of your life and costs under 50 bucks (and they waive the fee if you can show need). You didn't have to spend a huge amount of time studying or money taking prep courses. Your rant reminds me of professional programmers who get insulted when asked to do fizz-buzz during an interview. What's the big deal? It's the quickest and easiest way to weed out the riff-raff. In my experience, the ones who get insulted are usually the ones who can't do it.

KevinMS 18y ago
Some people that score well on interview tests are the worst fuckuppited programmers you'd never want to work with. And some who blow it are a pleasure to work with. Those little tests don't account for documentation, architecture, scalability, readability, refactoring, etc. I don't give a damn if somebody can't come up with some little algorithm during the pressure of a test that could have easily just googled for, and also what is the best practices for that algorithm. You are probably somebody new to the industry.
- smanek 18y ago
  Like I said, simple tests always have false positives. Of course a lot of poor coders can do fizz buzz. But, if you can't code fizz buzz in under five minutes, I guarantee you are a bad coder. It's a simple way to eliminate half your applicants. Sounds good to me.
- silencio 18y ago
  That's exactly how I feel. Fizzbuzz and the SAT alike are to me just filling some very limited uses where they would come in handy - like if you ever DID ask fizzbuzz from an interviewee you'd at most be able to weed out people who don't know what the heck they're talking about, like some moron applying for a Java position that knows no Java. But to me the difference is that the SAT is like fizzbuzz applied to everyone regardless...if you had an interviewee that you knew in every way that fizzbuzz would be a waste of time (even that tiny amount of time) because they've proved themselves in some other way, you wouldn't ask. That's pretty much all I'm wanting. Some things are just not worth the effort because there's plenty else to see who they are and what they are capable of doing.