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No we don’t. We need controlled and ‘value added’ migration. Shall I point to Swedens current events to show what non controlled migration does to a country whe

No we don’t. We need controlled and ‘value added’ migration. Shall I point to Swedens current events to show what non controlled migration does to a country where the cultures are not compatible?(with similar examples having happening in various european countries)

ggm 5y ago
If you think only letting elites migrate is helpful you know nothing about the nature of society. Sweden will drown in a lake of its own human waste without migrant labour to clean. Every western nation likes to think migration should be skilled labour only. They're wrong. It's actually far better to get lots of young, healthy motivated untrained people and invest in them, than import skilled labour only.
- Nesco 5y ago
  You just ignored an empirical evidence of a possible failure of your creed to then just reaffirm them. There can be no discussion if you decide that reality is not worth reevaluating your ideology
- hotpotamus 5y ago
  As you can see from this thread, the mere thought of investing in black people is controversial, though no one will admit it in those words.
  - Nesco 5y ago
    No, there are far more charities to help black people than white people, which is in itself not controversial. What is controversial though is replacement migration of white people in North America and Europe (the last of which they are actually indigenous) by black people because the western economic elite find it more economical than to enable the conditions necessary to raise the natality rates
    - FerociousTimes 5y ago
      The unhealthy fixation on the so-called Great Replacement conspiracy theory purportedly occurring in US/Canada primarily, and to a lesser degree Europe is tedious and unimaginative to say the least. The intellectual efforts need not to be invested not in proving/disproving this theory but on why the Anglo countries in the New World get to absorb all the migrants from the Old World (excluding Europe) when Central and South America should at least theoretically attract migrants when in practice that this in not the case, and to make matters worse they export migrants to other countries outside of that bloc because let's face it, the New World will always be fluid when it comes to the legitimate claim to the lands since all the nation-states in that part of the world are byproducts of the Age of Exploration. These are the questions that should be investigated and researched and not some lunatic conspiracy theories that do more hard than good for the concerned people.
  - the_omegist 5y ago
    So I guess foreign aid and NGOs money thrown into Africa is a myth ? Going from "we should make MASSIVE foreigners come cos it's so cool" to "they don't want to invest in black people" is disingenuous. The debate is about 1) the quantity 2) the type (qualifications). And if I wanted to be as disingenuous as you I would ask you : why don't black people invest in black people?
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  There is a difference between elites and just about anyone. The lack of labour to 'clean' or wait tables is not because locals don't want to do it. Is because locals don't want to do it in the exploitive conditions they have to work. Raise the conditions/pay and they will want to do it. 'Poor' immigrants take those jobs because it is better than what they have back home, but we shouldn't aim to exploit immigrants to keep our cheap shit. Pretty much all over europe fruit picking companies/owners exploit this. No-one in their right mind want to work for less than minimum wage, temporary contracts, 12hour days under the sun skirting any kind of health and safety laws. So they go and pick poorer people from other countries where it is a step up from where they are from. Think the covid lockdowns proved pretty much that. In my country, owners complain they don't have people to work in turism/service industry and beg beg beg government for more open borders. And of course no-one wants to. Unpaid work hours, salaries paid under the table so owners don't pay employment taxes on that. No labour security because 'who needs a contract'. So now we have a bunch of pakistani people (nothing against them), that hardly speak the language working in shitty conditions, because owners don't want to pay the required legally mandated salaries + work conditions. I am far in the income ladder compared to 'these jobs', but I want the people working them to have a decent standard of living, higher salaries and better work conditions, but that will never work if we keep exploiting 'poor' immigrants with open door policies.
  - FerociousTimes 5y ago
    Not only the unscrupulous business owners are guilty of exploiting these poor migrants but there are other accomplices like the government turning a blind eye to these practices as they get to benefit from the exploitation of cheap migrant labor but also the general public is an accomplice with their apathy and indifference to the suffering of these workers and also, and I hate to do this, by reframing the debate in nativist terms like you did here. The solution should be to offer a decent immigration path/track for these workers that balances all the interests of concerned stakeholders, and also make sense from an economic standpoint because sometimes you can't make a business case for paying high rates for low-skilled jobs as this might weigh negatively on profitability and drive some establishments out of business.
- the_omegist 5y ago
  As you seem to know so well what is right or wrong : can you name me 3 countries who "[massively invested] in young, healthy motivated untrained people" and got better ? The problem with your statements is they are so extreme on one side that even people like me who usually don't care about such topic have to weight in in the other direction to make another voice heard...
MrMan 5y ago
we need full spectrum population growth. imagine in your head that these new people are arriving by birth. they will follow a bell curve in many respects, and so will immigrants. growth is growth, you have to stop thinking that immigrants are a threat.

ggm 5y ago

If you think only letting elites migrate is helpful you know nothing about the nature of society. Sweden will drown in a lake of its own human waste without migrant labour to clean. Every western nation likes to think migration should be skilled labour only. They're wrong. It's actually far better to get lots of young, healthy motivated untrained people and invest in them, than import skilled labour only.

Nesco 5y ago
You just ignored an empirical evidence of a possible failure of your creed to then just reaffirm them. There can be no discussion if you decide that reality is not worth reevaluating your ideology
hotpotamus 5y ago
As you can see from this thread, the mere thought of investing in black people is controversial, though no one will admit it in those words.
- Nesco 5y ago
  No, there are far more charities to help black people than white people, which is in itself not controversial. What is controversial though is replacement migration of white people in North America and Europe (the last of which they are actually indigenous) by black people because the western economic elite find it more economical than to enable the conditions necessary to raise the natality rates
  - FerociousTimes 5y ago
    The unhealthy fixation on the so-called Great Replacement conspiracy theory purportedly occurring in US/Canada primarily, and to a lesser degree Europe is tedious and unimaginative to say the least. The intellectual efforts need not to be invested not in proving/disproving this theory but on why the Anglo countries in the New World get to absorb all the migrants from the Old World (excluding Europe) when Central and South America should at least theoretically attract migrants when in practice that this in not the case, and to make matters worse they export migrants to other countries outside of that bloc because let's face it, the New World will always be fluid when it comes to the legitimate claim to the lands since all the nation-states in that part of the world are byproducts of the Age of Exploration. These are the questions that should be investigated and researched and not some lunatic conspiracy theories that do more hard than good for the concerned people.
- the_omegist 5y ago
  So I guess foreign aid and NGOs money thrown into Africa is a myth ? Going from "we should make MASSIVE foreigners come cos it's so cool" to "they don't want to invest in black people" is disingenuous. The debate is about 1) the quantity 2) the type (qualifications). And if I wanted to be as disingenuous as you I would ask you : why don't black people invest in black people?
odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
There is a difference between elites and just about anyone. The lack of labour to 'clean' or wait tables is not because locals don't want to do it. Is because locals don't want to do it in the exploitive conditions they have to work. Raise the conditions/pay and they will want to do it. 'Poor' immigrants take those jobs because it is better than what they have back home, but we shouldn't aim to exploit immigrants to keep our cheap shit. Pretty much all over europe fruit picking companies/owners exploit this. No-one in their right mind want to work for less than minimum wage, temporary contracts, 12hour days under the sun skirting any kind of health and safety laws. So they go and pick poorer people from other countries where it is a step up from where they are from. Think the covid lockdowns proved pretty much that. In my country, owners complain they don't have people to work in turism/service industry and beg beg beg government for more open borders. And of course no-one wants to. Unpaid work hours, salaries paid under the table so owners don't pay employment taxes on that. No labour security because 'who needs a contract'. So now we have a bunch of pakistani people (nothing against them), that hardly speak the language working in shitty conditions, because owners don't want to pay the required legally mandated salaries + work conditions. I am far in the income ladder compared to 'these jobs', but I want the people working them to have a decent standard of living, higher salaries and better work conditions, but that will never work if we keep exploiting 'poor' immigrants with open door policies.
- FerociousTimes 5y ago
  Not only the unscrupulous business owners are guilty of exploiting these poor migrants but there are other accomplices like the government turning a blind eye to these practices as they get to benefit from the exploitation of cheap migrant labor but also the general public is an accomplice with their apathy and indifference to the suffering of these workers and also, and I hate to do this, by reframing the debate in nativist terms like you did here. The solution should be to offer a decent immigration path/track for these workers that balances all the interests of concerned stakeholders, and also make sense from an economic standpoint because sometimes you can't make a business case for paying high rates for low-skilled jobs as this might weigh negatively on profitability and drive some establishments out of business.
the_omegist 5y ago
As you seem to know so well what is right or wrong : can you name me 3 countries who "[massively invested] in young, healthy motivated untrained people" and got better ? The problem with your statements is they are so extreme on one side that even people like me who usually don't care about such topic have to weight in in the other direction to make another voice heard...

MrMan 5y ago

we need full spectrum population growth. imagine in your head that these new people are arriving by birth. they will follow a bell curve in many respects, and so will immigrants. growth is growth, you have to stop thinking that immigrants are a threat.