5 ms·

Air tight homes and health problems. https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/airtight-new-homes-creating-serious-health-problems/ https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/a

by jweir 4y ago

Air tight homes and health problems. https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/airtight-new-homes-creating-serious-health-problems/ https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/airtight-new-homes-creatin...

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
It probably would make sense to have controlled and well-managed ventilation in airtight houses. It'd still be more energy efficient to heat and cool at a particular ventilation point rather than have what traditional houses have... a lot of leakage everywhere.
- Johnythree 4y ago
  "makes more sense"? In Europe it's required by law.
lbotos 4y ago
FTA: > It was to determine how well the HRVs How many of those homes tested installed a proper mechanical ventilation system? Anyone that is serious about air tightness will tell you that you need to manage the air transfer with an HRV or an ERV so it's filtered, controlled, and avoids these problems. --- I found the study you are quoting: https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/31281945/Cse_study.pdf https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/31281945/C... Results from the occupant interviews suggest inadequate knowledge of the ventilation system, with all Code 4 homes stating ‘not sure’ when asked about various features of the MVHR system, including the current settings, changing of filters, boost mode function and location of controls. Knowledge of the MVHR system was considerably lacking in Code 4 homes. All households stated that they did not know where the controls for the system were located, or how to change the settings. They asked people who moved into "airtight" social housing if they understood how the systems worked to keep the air moving and people said no. No wonder they had worse air quality...
- HPsquared 4y ago
  It's a risk when building homes for the general public, things like ventilation need to be idiot-proof. Maybe a big red warning if the system isn't working properly? Mandatory inspections?
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    The solution is sensored operations. The air system needs to measure the amount of CO2 and PM2.5 in each room and adjust automatically to maintain fresh air everywhere. "Turned off" should be considered a dangerous state you can't leave the system in - in fact, if due to some failure the system ends up turned off, it should continuously alarm or trip the electrical supply. Just like it's really hard to turn off the drivers airbag in a car.
    - twarge 4y ago
      Sensors help, but this is just a fan, and it needs to be on all the time in my experience.
      - b112 4y ago
        This sounds like teflon, approved because it is organically safe until it reaches a certain temp, even for a second, then it releases toxic gas, and becomss permanatly harmful to cook on. The approval logic was, people will: - always be very careful cooking, and never ever let the heat get too high - people will learn about teflon, and keep watch - people care Meanwhile, stories abound of people's birds dying from toxic gas (they are more susceptible, and die first). Note that if a bird dies, and you don't, that doesn't mean you were not injured. Or your family. If you're giving anything to a consumer, assume they know nothing, that they cannot follow directions, won't care even if they understand, etc, etc. Because that's how it is. This is validated, proven, over and over and over again. I love the idea of airtight, but think it is like lead in pipes. If we build like this, kids ... with their developing brains and bodies, will pay the price. And 40 years later, we'll be astonished at the absurdity of it all, the lost potential, wasted lives. Just like lead pipes, paint, etc.
tvb12 4y ago
> "The unit has produced a public awareness film urging people to ventilate their homes properly by ‘keeping vents or windows open when cooking, showering and cleaning..." Why showering?
- synicalx 4y ago
  I assume, steam causing moisture build up and associated mould and rot. That's a problem easily solved with a $20 exhaust fan though.
  - hedora 4y ago
    The cost of the fan is dwarfed by labor, and you’re not getting a fan you want to live with for $20. Also, at least in California, you have to hook it to a janky humidity sensing switch that costs more than $20.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      > Also, at least in California, you have to hook it to a janky humidity sensing switch that costs more than $20. To make it run automatically?
      - chuckledog 4y ago
        To have your tight house (and your family) breathe properly you’ll want to couple your smart bathroom exhaust fans with filtered air intakes. HRV/ERVs can do this but are overkill in many mild climates. A set of simple fan+filter pairs does the trick for us, can’t believe we lived so many years in poor ventilation.
    - robocat 4y ago
      > humidity sensing Anyone have links to working designs for humidity controlled fans or similar - preferably Raspberry Pi? I want an indoor sensor and an outdoor sensor, and to run the fan only occasionally (maybe 10 minutes a day) and only when outdoor humidity is much lower then indoor humidity. For holiday sleepout, that sometimes gets damp, but outdoors is sometimes high humidity so no point running fan in that case! I've looked at household ducted fans, but they don't really do what I want.
jonstewart 4y ago
Typically with passive houses/"pretty good" houses that have low inherent ACH they then have HRV/ERVs installed for mechanical ventilation, to provide good air quality. It's possible for such a building to have better air quality than normal construction. At the same time, the theory isn't always embodied correctly. The ventilation design may be poor or make wrong assumptions (like requiring bedroom doors to be open) or the homeowner may unwittingly turn it off or not change the filter periodically. I have a ~40 year old house that has some energy-efficient features, but ultimately isn't very tight and doesn't need ventilation. I still hope to install an ERV in the next few years, though, just because I think the benefits of good ventilation will be so strong.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  Yes, I'm in exactly the same boat (although my house is even older - almost 70 years old). I hope to gradually replace the leaky windows and external doors (would love to put in double-insulated windows), maybe staple air barrier membrane under the floorboards after insulating under them to reduce leakyness there (I already have good insulation in the ceiling). But first I want an ERV just to increase general air quality.
kkfx 4y ago
I've built my new home few years ago, so airtight according to local norms (France) and with proper ventilation, as computed in the project: IME the article have a small point in the sense that: - there is much more dust in wood-frame + glass wool homes than in classic masonry ones, so while formally anything is done as it should there are still a bit too much particles of I-do-not-know-what. So far (5y) I experience no health issue though, no specific sign of even little suffering, just noticing that I've clean around the double dust than the ancient home, perhaps people who already have respiratory issue might suffer; - even if formally calculated as it should I feel the need of a little bit more ventilation than the computed one. Air quality remain constant, so for instance in the bedroom I do not experience "morning poor air" that's a normal thing in classic houses, similarly if I hold a party perceived air quality stay essentially the same BUT when I'm outside I feel a better air, with a different significant enough to think that few m³/h would be far better. Beside that the article probably see restored houses, so houses where changes are constrained by something preexisting and compromises became a must, where much of the work was done "on experience and cheapness basis" not on seriously computed design fueled also by customers who do not understand much the tech. IME the overall quality of new home is still superior to the classic one, far lower humidity, far more constant climate matter.

by jweir 4y ago

Air tight homes and health problems. https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/airtight-new-homes-creating-serious-health-problems/ https://www.cibsejournal.com/news/airtight-new-homes-creatin...

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

It probably would make sense to have controlled and well-managed ventilation in airtight houses. It'd still be more energy efficient to heat and cool at a particular ventilation point rather than have what traditional houses have... a lot of leakage everywhere.

Johnythree 4y ago
"makes more sense"? In Europe it's required by law.

lbotos 4y ago

FTA: > It was to determine how well the HRVs How many of those homes tested installed a proper mechanical ventilation system? Anyone that is serious about air tightness will tell you that you need to manage the air transfer with an HRV or an ERV so it's filtered, controlled, and avoids these problems. --- I found the study you are quoting: https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/31281945/Cse_study.pdf https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/31281945/C... Results from the occupant interviews suggest inadequate knowledge of the ventilation system, with all Code 4 homes stating ‘not sure’ when asked about various features of the MVHR system, including the current settings, changing of filters, boost mode function and location of controls. Knowledge of the MVHR system was considerably lacking in Code 4 homes. All households stated that they did not know where the controls for the system were located, or how to change the settings. They asked people who moved into "airtight" social housing if they understood how the systems worked to keep the air moving and people said no. No wonder they had worse air quality...

HPsquared 4y ago
It's a risk when building homes for the general public, things like ventilation need to be idiot-proof. Maybe a big red warning if the system isn't working properly? Mandatory inspections?
- londons_explore 4y ago
  The solution is sensored operations. The air system needs to measure the amount of CO2 and PM2.5 in each room and adjust automatically to maintain fresh air everywhere. "Turned off" should be considered a dangerous state you can't leave the system in - in fact, if due to some failure the system ends up turned off, it should continuously alarm or trip the electrical supply. Just like it's really hard to turn off the drivers airbag in a car.
  - twarge 4y ago
    Sensors help, but this is just a fan, and it needs to be on all the time in my experience.
    - b112 4y ago
      This sounds like teflon, approved because it is organically safe until it reaches a certain temp, even for a second, then it releases toxic gas, and becomss permanatly harmful to cook on. The approval logic was, people will: - always be very careful cooking, and never ever let the heat get too high - people will learn about teflon, and keep watch - people care Meanwhile, stories abound of people's birds dying from toxic gas (they are more susceptible, and die first). Note that if a bird dies, and you don't, that doesn't mean you were not injured. Or your family. If you're giving anything to a consumer, assume they know nothing, that they cannot follow directions, won't care even if they understand, etc, etc. Because that's how it is. This is validated, proven, over and over and over again. I love the idea of airtight, but think it is like lead in pipes. If we build like this, kids ... with their developing brains and bodies, will pay the price. And 40 years later, we'll be astonished at the absurdity of it all, the lost potential, wasted lives. Just like lead pipes, paint, etc.

tvb12 4y ago

> "The unit has produced a public awareness film urging people to ventilate their homes properly by ‘keeping vents or windows open when cooking, showering and cleaning..." Why showering?

synicalx 4y ago
I assume, steam causing moisture build up and associated mould and rot. That's a problem easily solved with a $20 exhaust fan though.
- hedora 4y ago
  The cost of the fan is dwarfed by labor, and you’re not getting a fan you want to live with for $20. Also, at least in California, you have to hook it to a janky humidity sensing switch that costs more than $20.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > Also, at least in California, you have to hook it to a janky humidity sensing switch that costs more than $20. To make it run automatically?
    - chuckledog 4y ago
      To have your tight house (and your family) breathe properly you’ll want to couple your smart bathroom exhaust fans with filtered air intakes. HRV/ERVs can do this but are overkill in many mild climates. A set of simple fan+filter pairs does the trick for us, can’t believe we lived so many years in poor ventilation.
  - robocat 4y ago
    > humidity sensing Anyone have links to working designs for humidity controlled fans or similar - preferably Raspberry Pi? I want an indoor sensor and an outdoor sensor, and to run the fan only occasionally (maybe 10 minutes a day) and only when outdoor humidity is much lower then indoor humidity. For holiday sleepout, that sometimes gets damp, but outdoors is sometimes high humidity so no point running fan in that case! I've looked at household ducted fans, but they don't really do what I want.

jonstewart 4y ago

Typically with passive houses/"pretty good" houses that have low inherent ACH they then have HRV/ERVs installed for mechanical ventilation, to provide good air quality. It's possible for such a building to have better air quality than normal construction. At the same time, the theory isn't always embodied correctly. The ventilation design may be poor or make wrong assumptions (like requiring bedroom doors to be open) or the homeowner may unwittingly turn it off or not change the filter periodically. I have a ~40 year old house that has some energy-efficient features, but ultimately isn't very tight and doesn't need ventilation. I still hope to install an ERV in the next few years, though, just because I think the benefits of good ventilation will be so strong.

stephen_g 4y ago
Yes, I'm in exactly the same boat (although my house is even older - almost 70 years old). I hope to gradually replace the leaky windows and external doors (would love to put in double-insulated windows), maybe staple air barrier membrane under the floorboards after insulating under them to reduce leakyness there (I already have good insulation in the ceiling). But first I want an ERV just to increase general air quality.

kkfx 4y ago

I've built my new home few years ago, so airtight according to local norms (France) and with proper ventilation, as computed in the project: IME the article have a small point in the sense that: - there is much more dust in wood-frame + glass wool homes than in classic masonry ones, so while formally anything is done as it should there are still a bit too much particles of I-do-not-know-what. So far (5y) I experience no health issue though, no specific sign of even little suffering, just noticing that I've clean around the double dust than the ancient home, perhaps people who already have respiratory issue might suffer; - even if formally calculated as it should I feel the need of a little bit more ventilation than the computed one. Air quality remain constant, so for instance in the bedroom I do not experience "morning poor air" that's a normal thing in classic houses, similarly if I hold a party perceived air quality stay essentially the same BUT when I'm outside I feel a better air, with a different significant enough to think that few m³/h would be far better. Beside that the article probably see restored houses, so houses where changes are constrained by something preexisting and compromises became a must, where much of the work was done "on experience and cheapness basis" not on seriously computed design fueled also by customers who do not understand much the tech. IME the overall quality of new home is still superior to the classic one, far lower humidity, far more constant climate matter.