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I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects a

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also an honorable FUCK you to GitHub for your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). And FUCK the internet in 2022 for its bureaucratic and corporate spirit. And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem.

jfarmer 5y ago
Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down
- josephcsible 5y ago
  If you don't take down something you get a DMCA notice for, do you lose safe harbor status for everything, or just for that one thing? If the latter, then wouldn't it be a good move for GitHub to ignore DMCA requests that their lawyers are sure wouldn't hold water?
  - jfarmer 5y ago
    As I understand, there are different safe harbors and each applies at the "service" level. It's "online service providers" that have safe harbor status. If you lose safe harbor status you become liable for infringing content on that service. Infringement still has to happen and you'd still have to be taken to court and lose, but it's now "as if" you yourself uploaded everything. So in this instance GitHub would be fine, but if they didn't take down the content then they themselves would become liable for any fringing content on their platform. Or rather Microsoft would become liable, I suppose. IANAL. That's just my rough understanding. Fenwick and West has a lovely 36-page FAQ: https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.pdf https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.p...
- zomglings 5y ago
  That's reasonable. Apologies to GitHub. If software companies didn't do it, the DMCA goon squad would go after the data centers. Thank you for the link.
- doh 5y ago
  That is not technically correct. There is no definition "as soon as they receive it". In fact the law calls for "expeditiously or remove" access. Courts confirmed many times that days or weeks is considered expeditious. Github could've easily take the time and wait for SymPy to file counter notice which then allows Github to keep the content up up until courts say otherwise. Github instead elected to remove content immediately. By their choice.
  - jfarmer 5y ago
    That's fair. I didn't mean it literally, but should've been more precise since we're talking about a law. I wonder how many tech companies w/ platforms have any delay. Is there precedent?
    - doh 5y ago
      There are cases mostly around Facebook and Youtube taking weeks and prevailing on the judgement. Currently there is no established limit. European legislators are trying to establish some time limits but these are mostly around toxic content not related to copyright.
- caslon 5y ago
  People and corporations complicit with unjust laws are partially responsible for the injustice.
  - justinpowers 5y ago
    This. Especially those with real power, such as trillion dollar corporations.
rvivek 5y ago
Phew, this sounded like a scene from a Tarantino movie. We engage a 3rd party for this service. That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake. We are looking into it ASAP and this action will be reverted. We do need to get to the RCA to ensure we are giving strict guidelines on DMCA activity with the 3rd party or perhaps even consider switching to a new one.
- rdl 5y ago
  You are using a third party to perform an action which at core is counter to how the Internet works, AND you are using the same third party who has acted in bad faith before and did exactly the same thing to another victim of yours, and now you're deflecting onto the third party? This is entirely on you at this point.
  - rvivek 5y ago
    I literally said this in the comment above -- "That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake."
    - MarkMarine 5y ago
      That's what people say when they are ceremonially falling on their sword and don't think they really did anything wrong.
    - nickysielicki 5y ago
      I don’t like this phrasing because it sounds like you only care because it’s on the front page of HN and it’s a bad look — “because [your] reputation is at stake”. You should care because paying someone to disrupt totally innocent open source projects is a shitty thing to do. Filing false DMCA requests on your behalf is also illegal. I like to think that if this never got any attention and your reputation wasn’t at stake, you’d still be adamant about doing the right thing. “Perhaps even consider switching“ providers doesn’t reflect the urgency in getting this right.
beckman466 5y ago
> And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem. as a user you literally are not the problem. the problem is the monopolization of technology by a small group of investors, which makes it nearly impossible for alternatives to rise. why isn't a platform like Github part of the commons instead of a private, proprietary fiefdom? why is it instead the private property of, and part of the investment portfolio of, a person who says things like: "As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software."
- zomglings 5y ago
  I do think that I am part of the problem. Although there is no commons alternative, there is Sourcehut - run by a team that is dedicated to the principles of free software. I should be giving them the money that I spend on GitHub. At the very least, I should be giving them more money than I give GitHub... I will do that immediately.
  - not2b 5y ago
    Sourcehut is also subject to US law and would have to take down your project if this company files a false claim against you. The problem in this case isn't GitHub, it's the filing of false DMCA notices. And that's not solely a US problem, it can happen in the EU as well.
zamalek 5y ago
HackerRank and LeetCode are a scourge on our industry, for more reasons than this shitty behavior.
- a-dub 5y ago
  automated programming tests are pretty dystopic, it's true. especially if the web based editor doesn't support vim style key bindings. amusing irony that likely parts of a question were lifted from the very source that was subject to the takedown. bigger problem i have with coding tests is that they check if someone is familiar with some subset of reference material (usually algorithms). in my experience, anyone can pull those from a book in practice and real software engineering has little to do with that and more to do with having the knowledge and experience to avoid making a mess or building weird software.
- __app_dev__ 5y ago
  Well said!! Personally, I like designing and building software and have been doing so for 20+ years but after doing several HakerRank and Leetcode style interviews it makes me wish to do something else. I’ve had FAANG recruiters tell me “study for hours per day for a few months” and then you can be ready. Even smaller companies focus on leetcode more than actual experience. I’ve worked with plenty of optimal algorithms in my life but when I do I spend time researching and looking at many examples rather than having to memorize something that shouldn’t be memorized in the first place; but the way the interviews are done it seems like companies just want code monkeys (even the good paying companies). No other well-paid profession tolerates this style of interview one you have experience. I would never recommend Software Engineering to anyone given the current environment.
  - brian_cloutier 5y ago
    Neither HackerRank nor Leetcode invented this style of interview. The questions you're complaining about predate both sites. The sites were created to help you study for those questions, they did not significantly popularize the questions.
    - 5y ago
brasic 5y ago
> your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). See https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944 https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944: > Before disabling any content in relation to this takedown notice, GitHub > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. > - provided information on how to submit a DMCA Counter Notice. (Disclosure: I work at GitHub)
- calibas 5y ago
  One of the SymPy maintainers said they responded within 2 hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091731
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Unless i'm mistaken about the law[0], they can only restore it after 10 business days to give the legal team of HackerRank (the claimant) time to file suit. 0: 17 U.S.C. § 512(g)(2)(b) and (c) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hef19898 5y ago
  >> > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. This implies that GitHub is believing the DCMA notice is justified in the first place...
judge2020 5y ago
> What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? from the request[0]: > Someone has illegally copied our client's technical exams questions and answers from their official website hackerrank.com and uploaded them on their platform without permission. Archive of the allegedly infringing page is here[1]. 0: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-15-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...
- philderbeast 5y ago
  intersting, im not seeing anything that looks like it would be copywritable at "questions and answers" on that archive page. I feel like hacker rank might be facing an uphill battle for this one.
tejtm 5y ago
I will add a fuck YC for insufficiency ethics filters on who they support I suppose it can be hard to be perfectly prescient (I'm not) but that is what lawyers are for, include a don't be a dick later on clause, and enforce it.

jfarmer 5y ago

Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down

josephcsible 5y ago
If you don't take down something you get a DMCA notice for, do you lose safe harbor status for everything, or just for that one thing? If the latter, then wouldn't it be a good move for GitHub to ignore DMCA requests that their lawyers are sure wouldn't hold water?
- jfarmer 5y ago
  As I understand, there are different safe harbors and each applies at the "service" level. It's "online service providers" that have safe harbor status. If you lose safe harbor status you become liable for infringing content on that service. Infringement still has to happen and you'd still have to be taken to court and lose, but it's now "as if" you yourself uploaded everything. So in this instance GitHub would be fine, but if they didn't take down the content then they themselves would become liable for any fringing content on their platform. Or rather Microsoft would become liable, I suppose. IANAL. That's just my rough understanding. Fenwick and West has a lovely 36-page FAQ: https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.pdf https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.p...
zomglings 5y ago
That's reasonable. Apologies to GitHub. If software companies didn't do it, the DMCA goon squad would go after the data centers. Thank you for the link.
doh 5y ago
That is not technically correct. There is no definition "as soon as they receive it". In fact the law calls for "expeditiously or remove" access. Courts confirmed many times that days or weeks is considered expeditious. Github could've easily take the time and wait for SymPy to file counter notice which then allows Github to keep the content up up until courts say otherwise. Github instead elected to remove content immediately. By their choice.
- jfarmer 5y ago
  That's fair. I didn't mean it literally, but should've been more precise since we're talking about a law. I wonder how many tech companies w/ platforms have any delay. Is there precedent?
  - doh 5y ago
    There are cases mostly around Facebook and Youtube taking weeks and prevailing on the judgement. Currently there is no established limit. European legislators are trying to establish some time limits but these are mostly around toxic content not related to copyright.
caslon 5y ago
People and corporations complicit with unjust laws are partially responsible for the injustice.
- justinpowers 5y ago
  This. Especially those with real power, such as trillion dollar corporations.

rvivek 5y ago

Phew, this sounded like a scene from a Tarantino movie. We engage a 3rd party for this service. That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake. We are looking into it ASAP and this action will be reverted. We do need to get to the RCA to ensure we are giving strict guidelines on DMCA activity with the 3rd party or perhaps even consider switching to a new one.

rdl 5y ago
You are using a third party to perform an action which at core is counter to how the Internet works, AND you are using the same third party who has acted in bad faith before and did exactly the same thing to another victim of yours, and now you're deflecting onto the third party? This is entirely on you at this point.
- rvivek 5y ago
  I literally said this in the comment above -- "That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake."
  - MarkMarine 5y ago
    That's what people say when they are ceremonially falling on their sword and don't think they really did anything wrong.
  - nickysielicki 5y ago
    I don’t like this phrasing because it sounds like you only care because it’s on the front page of HN and it’s a bad look — “because [your] reputation is at stake”. You should care because paying someone to disrupt totally innocent open source projects is a shitty thing to do. Filing false DMCA requests on your behalf is also illegal. I like to think that if this never got any attention and your reputation wasn’t at stake, you’d still be adamant about doing the right thing. “Perhaps even consider switching“ providers doesn’t reflect the urgency in getting this right.

beckman466 5y ago

> And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem. as a user you literally are not the problem. the problem is the monopolization of technology by a small group of investors, which makes it nearly impossible for alternatives to rise. why isn't a platform like Github part of the commons instead of a private, proprietary fiefdom? why is it instead the private property of, and part of the investment portfolio of, a person who says things like: "As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software."

zomglings 5y ago
I do think that I am part of the problem. Although there is no commons alternative, there is Sourcehut - run by a team that is dedicated to the principles of free software. I should be giving them the money that I spend on GitHub. At the very least, I should be giving them more money than I give GitHub... I will do that immediately.
- not2b 5y ago
  Sourcehut is also subject to US law and would have to take down your project if this company files a false claim against you. The problem in this case isn't GitHub, it's the filing of false DMCA notices. And that's not solely a US problem, it can happen in the EU as well.

zamalek 5y ago

HackerRank and LeetCode are a scourge on our industry, for more reasons than this shitty behavior.

a-dub 5y ago
automated programming tests are pretty dystopic, it's true. especially if the web based editor doesn't support vim style key bindings. amusing irony that likely parts of a question were lifted from the very source that was subject to the takedown. bigger problem i have with coding tests is that they check if someone is familiar with some subset of reference material (usually algorithms). in my experience, anyone can pull those from a book in practice and real software engineering has little to do with that and more to do with having the knowledge and experience to avoid making a mess or building weird software.
__app_dev__ 5y ago
Well said!! Personally, I like designing and building software and have been doing so for 20+ years but after doing several HakerRank and Leetcode style interviews it makes me wish to do something else. I’ve had FAANG recruiters tell me “study for hours per day for a few months” and then you can be ready. Even smaller companies focus on leetcode more than actual experience. I’ve worked with plenty of optimal algorithms in my life but when I do I spend time researching and looking at many examples rather than having to memorize something that shouldn’t be memorized in the first place; but the way the interviews are done it seems like companies just want code monkeys (even the good paying companies). No other well-paid profession tolerates this style of interview one you have experience. I would never recommend Software Engineering to anyone given the current environment.
- brian_cloutier 5y ago
  Neither HackerRank nor Leetcode invented this style of interview. The questions you're complaining about predate both sites. The sites were created to help you study for those questions, they did not significantly popularize the questions.
  - 5y ago

brasic 5y ago

> your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). See https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944 https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944: > Before disabling any content in relation to this takedown notice, GitHub > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. > - provided information on how to submit a DMCA Counter Notice. (Disclosure: I work at GitHub)

calibas 5y ago
One of the SymPy maintainers said they responded within 2 hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091731
- judge2020 5y ago
  Unless i'm mistaken about the law[0], they can only restore it after 10 business days to give the legal team of HackerRank (the claimant) time to file suit. 0: 17 U.S.C. § 512(g)(2)(b) and (c) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hef19898 5y ago
>> > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. This implies that GitHub is believing the DCMA notice is justified in the first place...

judge2020 5y ago

> What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? from the request[0]: > Someone has illegally copied our client's technical exams questions and answers from their official website hackerrank.com and uploaded them on their platform without permission. Archive of the allegedly infringing page is here[1]. 0: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-15-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...

philderbeast 5y ago
intersting, im not seeing anything that looks like it would be copywritable at "questions and answers" on that archive page. I feel like hacker rank might be facing an uphill battle for this one.

tejtm 5y ago

I will add a fuck YC for insufficiency ethics filters on who they support I suppose it can be hard to be perfectly prescient (I'm not) but that is what lawyers are for, include a don't be a dick later on clause, and enforce it.