5 ms·
And usually leads to a BBOM architecture
by pphysch 5y ago
And usually leads to a BBOM architecture
- metadat 5y agoFor the uninitiated, BBOM = Big Ball Of Mud.
- gmfawcett 5y agoI have colleagues using Laravel, and there's nothing muddy-ball about their apps at all. Their code is tidy, modern, readable, and clearly maintainable. In terms of practical effect, frameworks influence developers more than languages do.
- eurasiantiger 5y agoThis was my PHP experience with CodeIgniter 15 years ago. Nothing new under the sun.
- gmfawcett 5y agoThat's good, I think? I'm not claiming that Laravel was the first or the best PHP framework, just that they were using it. (Admittedly I assume it's a reason their code is so well organized.)
- eurasiantiger 5y agoLaravel inherits its organisation from the underlying Symfony 2 framework, just like Drupal nowadays.
- gmfawcett 5y agoThanks, I didn't know that.
- pphysch 5y agoWhen people say they use "PHP" for webdev I recall BBOMs of flat files and raw SQL. Historically speaking, "PHP" does not necessarily imply "PHP+Laravel" or any other sane framework. OTOH if someone says they use "Python" for webdev I assume Flask/Django/etc.
- gmfawcett 5y agoI think you've summarized it well: people tend to make technical judgments based on preconceived and historical notions, in spite of evidence to the contrary. :)
- astrange 5y agoThe idea of using a "framework" in a language that gets completely reloaded on every new request doesn't make sense - at least I thought a framework was something that wrapped your own code and presented an event loop, etc. You'd want a "library" if you just wanted to improve on the original low quality PHP database connectors and such. But PHP developers always did seem to have inappropriate jealousy over unrelated languages like Java where there is persistence over requests.
- gmfawcett 5y agoYou sound like me, but ten years ago. :) I used to have a similarly negative and narrow-minded perspective about PHP, but my colleagues and their outstanding work have enlightened me.
- mst 5y agoI am entirely unfond of PHP as a language but Laravel - and competently written apps that use it - are damn impressive nonetheless.
- mekster 5y agoIf you can't like the current PHP, there's probably no language that will make you feel too well. What exactly is so bad about it?
- mst 5y agoThe point I wanted to make was that Laravel is objectively impressive even to somebody who dislikes PHP, so going into details as to exactly why I dislike the language would distract from what I was trying to get across.
- astrange 5y agoPHP itself is perfectly designed to run CGI scripts and the correct architecture for web performance (shared-nothing). It's the third party developers that have second-system effect enterprise dreams. Though maybe some of them have found simplicity again.
- codedokode 5y agoThis is not true. If you need 1000 lines of templates to display a page, it will be 1000 lines no matter whether you use Twig (PHP) or React (JS). And Twig in my opinion looks better than JS code mixed with HTML tags and split into 100 files 10 lines each.
- sph 5y agoBBOM > debugging SSR hydration issues.
- pphysch 5y agoproductive ORM & simple HTML template engine > BBOM
- Keyframe 5y agoBecause what we're witnessing in JS-land these days is completely sane and rational.
- lelanthran 5y ago> And usually leads to a BBOM architecture Aren't "big ball of mud"s legendary for being counter-intuitively successful products?
- jacobsenscott 5y agoAll successful projects end up as a BBOM. The framework or language or architecture you use has no bearing on this. It is just the thermodynamics of software development. If something is not a BBOM it just hasn't been around long enough.
- tored 5y agoYou can write BBOM in any language/platform/technology. It is always the programmers that is the limitation, not the chosen technology. Thus you should pick technology that makes sense for the majority of programmers. PHP fits that. Just follow a guide to avoid BBOM.
- midrus 5y agoNot my experience. Most Laravel projects I've seen are in a much much better shape than even the most minimal "microservices" I've seen around. You get so much done for you with Laravel that it makes it a bit more difficult to mess up. I've seen microservices that had absolutely no guardrais going off the hill too many times. At my previous job "migrations" where bash scripts with SQL in them because they "didn't like ORMs and they were slow". LOL. They were handling signup form POSTs and profile updates.