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The often brilliant SMBC recently, on liberal education: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education

The often brilliant SMBC recently, on liberal education: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education I post this because I'm so very tired of this particular conversation about higher education, and I really wonder if we could maybe get back to the original thing we were trying to do with colleges, wherein we promoted our general humanity and allowed people to be better, richer (in the "broth of humanity", as opposed to the dollars) versions of themselves in a better, richer society, and sort of step back from this notion of "that book of poetry you just read isn't going to translate to additional income later, so why'd you do it" that seems to be the only way we engage with any of this lately. I know, I'm shouting into the void, and there's a bunch of real world stuff and broken things here, but my god, I'm just so, so tired of a conversation that just really feels like people complaining that the canvas on which that work of art was painted costs much, much more than just painting the wall white and doesn't seem to offer any actual practical benefit.

dorchadas 5y ago
Just wanted to let you know I completely agree with you. I went to an undergraduate university that required two semester of philosophy and two of theology, and I certainly think I'm better off for them. I think we need to get back to that and away from expecting universities to be job training. Let the employers train their employees instead of foisting it on universities.
afthonos 5y ago
This is not that conversation. I'm a huge fan of the comic, but there's a difference between discussing the worth of having art at all, discussing how we make art, and discussing whether every wall everywhere should be covered in art on expensive canvas. There are two possible reasons for universal college: first, societal ones, where we presume that everyone going to college is good for society. In those cases, it must be justified as such, and crucially must be paid for by society (or viewed as a social duty). The other case is to benefit the individuals that to go to college. In that case, you have to make the argument that going to college is a better option than not for (essentially) everyone as individuals. This is the tack that the US is taking. None of this involves the wonders of carrying on a conversation unbroken since Plato. For one, many people don't have a liberal college education, they have a STEM education which, while enforcing some level of humanities exposure, views them as annoying requirements—this is both at the institutional and the student level. For another, most people think they're going to college to get a better job. Using that comic to justify universal college, is like using a biography of Michelangelo to insist every mason should learn how to sculpt the Pieta. Some people just want to build walls. And we need walls.
belthesar 5y ago
This. I didn't go to college myself, and have a fortunately successful career thus far, but the two key reasons I wish I had gone ultimately boil down to "I wish I had established a broader knowledge on topics related to my industry," and "I wish I was better versed in more worldly subjects." With that said, I think we're poorly equipping high school students to make those evaluations as to if/when that's a smart choice for them. I support the argument for more trade schools and apprenticeships because for a number of folks, myself included in my early post-high school years, going to college straight out of HS would have been a giant waste of time and money. I wouldn't have taken it seriously, I didn't understand what I really wanted from life, only that I was "good at computer." High school guidance councilors are spending time and energy on getting you testing well, getting into school, because "it's good", but not once did I get counsel on whether that would have been right for me, or if there was a route I could take later on in life where I could take a path towards short term success that would give me the security to figure out "what do I want to do" after I'd learned enough about who I was.
zozbot234 5y ago
> The often brilliant SMBC recently, on liberal education: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education Try doing some liberal arts grad school, it will quickly disabuse you of the naïve wishful thinking that's reflected in this comic. It's way more insanely competitive and credential-driven than even the hardest STEM fields. Undergrad doesn't count, it's easy mode.

dorchadas 5y ago

Just wanted to let you know I completely agree with you. I went to an undergraduate university that required two semester of philosophy and two of theology, and I certainly think I'm better off for them. I think we need to get back to that and away from expecting universities to be job training. Let the employers train their employees instead of foisting it on universities.

afthonos 5y ago

This is not that conversation. I'm a huge fan of the comic, but there's a difference between discussing the worth of having art at all, discussing how we make art, and discussing whether every wall everywhere should be covered in art on expensive canvas. There are two possible reasons for universal college: first, societal ones, where we presume that everyone going to college is good for society. In those cases, it must be justified as such, and crucially must be paid for by society (or viewed as a social duty). The other case is to benefit the individuals that to go to college. In that case, you have to make the argument that going to college is a better option than not for (essentially) everyone as individuals. This is the tack that the US is taking. None of this involves the wonders of carrying on a conversation unbroken since Plato. For one, many people don't have a liberal college education, they have a STEM education which, while enforcing some level of humanities exposure, views them as annoying requirements—this is both at the institutional and the student level. For another, most people think they're going to college to get a better job. Using that comic to justify universal college, is like using a biography of Michelangelo to insist every mason should learn how to sculpt the Pieta. Some people just want to build walls. And we need walls.

belthesar 5y ago

This. I didn't go to college myself, and have a fortunately successful career thus far, but the two key reasons I wish I had gone ultimately boil down to "I wish I had established a broader knowledge on topics related to my industry," and "I wish I was better versed in more worldly subjects." With that said, I think we're poorly equipping high school students to make those evaluations as to if/when that's a smart choice for them. I support the argument for more trade schools and apprenticeships because for a number of folks, myself included in my early post-high school years, going to college straight out of HS would have been a giant waste of time and money. I wouldn't have taken it seriously, I didn't understand what I really wanted from life, only that I was "good at computer." High school guidance councilors are spending time and energy on getting you testing well, getting into school, because "it's good", but not once did I get counsel on whether that would have been right for me, or if there was a route I could take later on in life where I could take a path towards short term success that would give me the security to figure out "what do I want to do" after I'd learned enough about who I was.

zozbot234 5y ago

> The often brilliant SMBC recently, on liberal education: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/liberal-education Try doing some liberal arts grad school, it will quickly disabuse you of the naïve wishful thinking that's reflected in this comic. It's way more insanely competitive and credential-driven than even the hardest STEM fields. Undergrad doesn't count, it's easy mode.