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My understanding is not that independence as a trait is more common in men, its that independent women are less likely to apply for positions when its specified

My understanding is not that independence as a trait is more common in men, its that independent women are less likely to apply for positions when its specified they're looking for an independent person. Like, for example, if I read for a competitive, independent, ownership, whatever buzzword position, I think "wow is this some kinda hostile all-blame culture or something where everyone is out for themselves? I'll pass, thanks". I would say I'm a fairly independent dev who takes a lot of pride in my craft. But a lot of toxic workplaces in my time excuse their toxicity in saying their employees just aren't tough enough to handle the workplace.

thegrimmest 5y ago
> wow is this some kinda hostile all-blame culture or something where everyone is out for themselves? But what if that's an accurate understanding of the company culture? There are surely people who thrive in these sorts of environments, even if you (and I) are not among them. Are you suggesting that these people are mostly men?
- PuppyTailWags 5y ago
  I made one point that women (apparently) apply less to something with X language even if the language describes them. Then I made a completely separate, personal experience anecdote of how I feel when I'm exposed to that language because of what it tells me about the culture. I didn't link my personal experience to that of a gendered experience representative of anything broadly, you did.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    My point was that if this hypothetical company, in the interest of inclusiveness, modified the language in their job postings to be less masculine-coded, they would be actively destroying useful information that you and I would use to pass them over.
- wtetzner 5y ago
  > But what if that's an accurate understanding of the company culture? Then avoiding the language would effectively be tricking people into applying when they wouldn't actually want to work under those conditions.

thegrimmest 5y ago

> wow is this some kinda hostile all-blame culture or something where everyone is out for themselves? But what if that's an accurate understanding of the company culture? There are surely people who thrive in these sorts of environments, even if you (and I) are not among them. Are you suggesting that these people are mostly men?

PuppyTailWags 5y ago
I made one point that women (apparently) apply less to something with X language even if the language describes them. Then I made a completely separate, personal experience anecdote of how I feel when I'm exposed to that language because of what it tells me about the culture. I didn't link my personal experience to that of a gendered experience representative of anything broadly, you did.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  My point was that if this hypothetical company, in the interest of inclusiveness, modified the language in their job postings to be less masculine-coded, they would be actively destroying useful information that you and I would use to pass them over.
wtetzner 5y ago
> But what if that's an accurate understanding of the company culture? Then avoiding the language would effectively be tricking people into applying when they wouldn't actually want to work under those conditions.