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> College is a scam (specifically the debt-based form of it) and nearly completely unnecessary for most work. Signalling remains incredibly important. Employer

> College is a scam (specifically the debt-based form of it) and nearly completely unnecessary for most work. Signalling remains incredibly important. Employers want to know that their junior employees are capable of overcoming adversity. There are many ways to check for that, but the easiest is check if they've succeeded in a stressful environment before. That's effectively all a degree is for most jobs. No, you don't need a college degree to get a white collar job, but convincing employers that you are the type of person who overcomes adversity is much harder without the degree. As far as the price, last time I checked getting a college education is still statistically the best investment you can make. The price is increasing because people are willing to pay since they recognize how much it will add to their earning potential.

hooande 5y ago
I would not look at a college degree as an indicator that someone can overcome adversity. They are incredibly common. Almost everyone applying to certain categories of job will have one. And I've personally seen a large number of people with at least one degree fall apart under the real pressure of a startup or FAANG job. The whole point of a leetcode interview is to separate the applicants who merely graduated from the ones who can handle very difficult questions under close observation. And I would be remiss of I didn't point out that people who go to college at all are more likely to be from well off families and have educated parents. It's a "great investment" for those who already have a huge head start.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I agree that there are better signals. As I said, the college degree is just the easiest one for employers to use. I think there probably will be a shift towards tech style interviews in other fields, but until they figure that out the degree is an important aspect of deciding who is able to be successful. >I've personally seen a large number of people with at least one degree fall apart under the real pressure There are of course false positive/negatives with every heuristic, I don't think that makes them worthless. > people who go to college at all are more likely to be from well off families and have educated parents. The studies on how a diploma effects future earnings obviously controlled for that, as well as many other things. You can go ahead and check the studies, they're pretty thorough. College is a great investment for many, even if it is much easier for the wealthy to obtain.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I would not look at a college degree as an indicator that someone can overcome adversity. They are incredibly common. Almost everyone applying to certain categories of job will have one. It might not be a good signal of "can overcome adversity" because everyone has one, but not having a degree could be a good signal for "can't overcome adversity".
sealaska 5y ago
> The price is increasing because people are willing to pay since they recognize how much it will add to their earning potential. I assumed prices for colleges were increasing because of the availability of cheap debt. I know plenty of people who went to college, taking out large amounts of debt, and not seeming to directly consider their earning potential post-graduation.
- Sebguer 5y ago
  It's ridiculous for eighteen year olds to have to consider their future earning potential, when the constant drumbeat is "you must go to college to be a successful human". I was the only person in my immediate family to go to college, and it was clear from my school and my family that "college = success". I majored in psychology, which has absolutely no job prospects. At no point did I have meaningful support from anyone around me in terms of picking an "effective" degree, or evaluating job opportunities. It worked out fine for me, because I spent most of my time not paying attention to class and screwing around on the internet instead, so the ~50k in private student loans at an extortionate rate that I had to take out to attend have never been a problem, but it was all by complete luck.
  - sealaska 5y ago
    It's an absurd system. How about we stop encouraging kids to go to college unless they have a plan on how to manage the incurred debt?
fullstackchris 5y ago
I love that it's considered 'adversity' - working in some of the most advanced labs in the world, on some of the most wealthy campuses in the world, all the while partying with your friends, doing the minimum work to get a B or C average. Not saying I was exactly one of those types, but those types ALSO got jobs just fine, and I'm ready to brawl anyone that says they faced any true 'adversity'.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  There absolutely are people that are not able to complete their degree with a B or C average. It's not an incredibly difficult thing to do at most schools, but I wouldn't exactly call it easy either. Additionally college is designed to test things that employers value most in junior hires. Basically comes down to "Are they able to consistently complete tasks on a deadline with minimal supervision?" Which isn't much of a bar, but many are still unable to pass.
invalidOrTaken 5y ago
>Signalling remains incredibly important. This is the kind of thing that remains true until it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely true right now, and I'd advise my own child to go---but this would a pragmatic knuckling-under, not a fundamental need. There's significant psychic distress that's created by being a maverick, which I doubly wouldn't wish on my children, so I would still advise them to go. But I would also advise them to not take it too seriously, to be interested in learning things outside of school, and to keep an eye out for off-ramps.
rufus_foreman 5y ago
>> the easiest is check if they've succeeded in a stressful environment before I guess you...overcame adversity by going to college? Least stressful time of my life. I fucked off, did drugs, and somebody else paid for it all. So much stress.

hooande 5y ago

I would not look at a college degree as an indicator that someone can overcome adversity. They are incredibly common. Almost everyone applying to certain categories of job will have one. And I've personally seen a large number of people with at least one degree fall apart under the real pressure of a startup or FAANG job. The whole point of a leetcode interview is to separate the applicants who merely graduated from the ones who can handle very difficult questions under close observation. And I would be remiss of I didn't point out that people who go to college at all are more likely to be from well off families and have educated parents. It's a "great investment" for those who already have a huge head start.

colinmhayes 5y ago
I agree that there are better signals. As I said, the college degree is just the easiest one for employers to use. I think there probably will be a shift towards tech style interviews in other fields, but until they figure that out the degree is an important aspect of deciding who is able to be successful. >I've personally seen a large number of people with at least one degree fall apart under the real pressure There are of course false positive/negatives with every heuristic, I don't think that makes them worthless. > people who go to college at all are more likely to be from well off families and have educated parents. The studies on how a diploma effects future earnings obviously controlled for that, as well as many other things. You can go ahead and check the studies, they're pretty thorough. College is a great investment for many, even if it is much easier for the wealthy to obtain.
gruez 5y ago
>I would not look at a college degree as an indicator that someone can overcome adversity. They are incredibly common. Almost everyone applying to certain categories of job will have one. It might not be a good signal of "can overcome adversity" because everyone has one, but not having a degree could be a good signal for "can't overcome adversity".

sealaska 5y ago

> The price is increasing because people are willing to pay since they recognize how much it will add to their earning potential. I assumed prices for colleges were increasing because of the availability of cheap debt. I know plenty of people who went to college, taking out large amounts of debt, and not seeming to directly consider their earning potential post-graduation.

Sebguer 5y ago
It's ridiculous for eighteen year olds to have to consider their future earning potential, when the constant drumbeat is "you must go to college to be a successful human". I was the only person in my immediate family to go to college, and it was clear from my school and my family that "college = success". I majored in psychology, which has absolutely no job prospects. At no point did I have meaningful support from anyone around me in terms of picking an "effective" degree, or evaluating job opportunities. It worked out fine for me, because I spent most of my time not paying attention to class and screwing around on the internet instead, so the ~50k in private student loans at an extortionate rate that I had to take out to attend have never been a problem, but it was all by complete luck.
- sealaska 5y ago
  It's an absurd system. How about we stop encouraging kids to go to college unless they have a plan on how to manage the incurred debt?

fullstackchris 5y ago

I love that it's considered 'adversity' - working in some of the most advanced labs in the world, on some of the most wealthy campuses in the world, all the while partying with your friends, doing the minimum work to get a B or C average. Not saying I was exactly one of those types, but those types ALSO got jobs just fine, and I'm ready to brawl anyone that says they faced any true 'adversity'.

colinmhayes 5y ago
There absolutely are people that are not able to complete their degree with a B or C average. It's not an incredibly difficult thing to do at most schools, but I wouldn't exactly call it easy either. Additionally college is designed to test things that employers value most in junior hires. Basically comes down to "Are they able to consistently complete tasks on a deadline with minimal supervision?" Which isn't much of a bar, but many are still unable to pass.

invalidOrTaken 5y ago

>Signalling remains incredibly important. This is the kind of thing that remains true until it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely true right now, and I'd advise my own child to go---but this would a pragmatic knuckling-under, not a fundamental need. There's significant psychic distress that's created by being a maverick, which I doubly wouldn't wish on my children, so I would still advise them to go. But I would also advise them to not take it too seriously, to be interested in learning things outside of school, and to keep an eye out for off-ramps.

rufus_foreman 5y ago

>> the easiest is check if they've succeeded in a stressful environment before I guess you...overcame adversity by going to college? Least stressful time of my life. I fucked off, did drugs, and somebody else paid for it all. So much stress.