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Some people are genuinely trying to make other people feel included. Some people just do it because of social pressure. One way or another this does feel like a

Some people are genuinely trying to make other people feel included. Some people just do it because of social pressure. One way or another this does feel like a force for the better.

stjohnswarts 4y ago
And that's great, but why do they force the issue and report you to HR for using "landlord" or "master/slave protocol" in a powerpoint presentation?
- otterley 4y ago
  Has this actually happened to you?
  - octopoc 4y ago
    How is that relevant? People are concerned about bad things that might happen to them but haven't happened to them yet. Just because it hasn't happened to them specifically doesn't mean their concerns are invalid.
    - otterley 4y ago
      Because the frequency of an occurrence is valuable data relating to its likelihood, just like knowing whether your house is in a floodplain is valuable data in making a decision as to whether you should worry about your house flooding. I mean, how many times has this happened to anyone, let alone the individual in question?
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      If they are using those terms in a way that is trying to stir up trouble, it makes sense to report them. If they did it without any intent to cause trouble, there wouldn't be an issue. I don't call Japanese customers Japs even though that used to be a valid English term because it is now widely considered offensive. These are terms that some groups find offensive and more may find offensive in the future. It makes sense to stay ahead of the game and not cause offense if it costs me nothing to do it, and it makes sense for Google to help people who are trying not to offend people do so easily.
  - native_samples 4y ago
    Eh, yes. PowerPoint was about how to do interviewing in ways that eliminated bias. A week later I'm having a conversation with my boss, who's telling me that I was reported to HR for misogyny and sexism because the presentation was about how to ensure that people don't hand out jobs based on sex or race. The logic seemed to be that if people are trained to eliminate bias in hiring, the the results will be sexist because not enough token women would be hired. I told said boss exactly how many times the complainant should be fired but needless to say, their identity was protected and nothing happened. If you believe that can't happen you're not really aware of how these people think. The next step is an admin/site-level setting that allows "uninclusive" language to force-disable sharing. You wait and see.
    - metabagel 4y ago
      "The logic seemed to be that if people are trained to eliminate bias in hiring, the the results will be sexist because not enough token women would be hired." If this was implicit in your presentation, then I think I can see why you were reported to HR. But, look, maybe you didn't deserve to be reported. Anyone can report anything to HR.
      - native_samples 4y ago
        Did you mean to write explicit? The presentation wasn't actually about gender representation or affirmative action and didn't mention those things, it just had a slide or two where it pointed out that working out a fixed interview plan before doing an interview was a good way to avoid bias of various kinds, and mentioned age/gender bias as examples. Obviously, if you're teaching people how to eliminate bias in an interview process then people who believe that absence of pro-female bias is "sexism" will consider it implicitly sexist, regardless of intent. But that's a nonsensical inversion of basic English and morality. People who report others to HR for that would be fired in any competent company (this one wasn't).
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    I've been DM'd with passive aggressive "concern" when questioning the parameters of a workplace inclusive language push.
  - fernandotakai 4y ago
    i was called out (in private, , by a coworker, not in my current company) for using "he" to reference an user instead of singular "they".
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Has it happened to me? Nope, did it happen to a co-worker, yes it did. Luckily they all worked it out and my friend didn't get fired.
- metabagel 4y ago
  Great straw man.
vorpalhex 4y ago
I don't see how underlining words like "brown bag", "landlord" and "master" are for the better in any sense. This is virtue signaling - a no cost action meant to make you feel like you are helping people without actually helping people.
- metabagel 4y ago
  It's not virtue signaling. Virtue signaling would be putting a decal on your car which says "I support the police". You're signaling to the police officer who pulls you over that you're a good police-supporting person, and they should let you off with a warning. No, it's simply a hint that your message might be better received if you change your word usage to something which is more current, more inclusive, or less triggering. For example, in the U.S. the word "master" might be triggering, given that black people were enslaved, tortured, and murdered for hundreds of years in this country. I'm OK to avoid it. If you want to use it, you can ignore the squiggle, but none of this has anything to do with "virtue signaling".
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    I really feel your usage of "enslaved" and "tortured" are not very inclusive. There are people whose ancestors experienced such things, and words like that might be triggering and make them uncomfortable. Maybe you could use friendlier words like "not free" or "hurt"?
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      What’s wrong with what GP just said? They were speaking in a historical relevant context where the words were used in their literal meaning rather than the figurative one that would devalue its meaning outside of pure figurative works.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        This is a form of reductio ad absurdum. If a word like "landlord" can be "triggering" then we can't even discuss actual historical events like slavery or torture, etc (one would at least presume torture to be more triggering than landlord).

Some people are genuinely trying to make other people feel included. Some people just do it because of social pressure. One way or another this does feel like a force for the better.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

And that's great, but why do they force the issue and report you to HR for using "landlord" or "master/slave protocol" in a powerpoint presentation?

otterley 4y ago
Has this actually happened to you?
- octopoc 4y ago
  How is that relevant? People are concerned about bad things that might happen to them but haven't happened to them yet. Just because it hasn't happened to them specifically doesn't mean their concerns are invalid.
  - otterley 4y ago
    Because the frequency of an occurrence is valuable data relating to its likelihood, just like knowing whether your house is in a floodplain is valuable data in making a decision as to whether you should worry about your house flooding. I mean, how many times has this happened to anyone, let alone the individual in question?
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    If they are using those terms in a way that is trying to stir up trouble, it makes sense to report them. If they did it without any intent to cause trouble, there wouldn't be an issue. I don't call Japanese customers Japs even though that used to be a valid English term because it is now widely considered offensive. These are terms that some groups find offensive and more may find offensive in the future. It makes sense to stay ahead of the game and not cause offense if it costs me nothing to do it, and it makes sense for Google to help people who are trying not to offend people do so easily.
- native_samples 4y ago
  Eh, yes. PowerPoint was about how to do interviewing in ways that eliminated bias. A week later I'm having a conversation with my boss, who's telling me that I was reported to HR for misogyny and sexism because the presentation was about how to ensure that people don't hand out jobs based on sex or race. The logic seemed to be that if people are trained to eliminate bias in hiring, the the results will be sexist because not enough token women would be hired. I told said boss exactly how many times the complainant should be fired but needless to say, their identity was protected and nothing happened. If you believe that can't happen you're not really aware of how these people think. The next step is an admin/site-level setting that allows "uninclusive" language to force-disable sharing. You wait and see.
  - metabagel 4y ago
    "The logic seemed to be that if people are trained to eliminate bias in hiring, the the results will be sexist because not enough token women would be hired." If this was implicit in your presentation, then I think I can see why you were reported to HR. But, look, maybe you didn't deserve to be reported. Anyone can report anything to HR.
    - native_samples 4y ago
      Did you mean to write explicit? The presentation wasn't actually about gender representation or affirmative action and didn't mention those things, it just had a slide or two where it pointed out that working out a fixed interview plan before doing an interview was a good way to avoid bias of various kinds, and mentioned age/gender bias as examples. Obviously, if you're teaching people how to eliminate bias in an interview process then people who believe that absence of pro-female bias is "sexism" will consider it implicitly sexist, regardless of intent. But that's a nonsensical inversion of basic English and morality. People who report others to HR for that would be fired in any competent company (this one wasn't).
- humanrebar 4y ago
  I've been DM'd with passive aggressive "concern" when questioning the parameters of a workplace inclusive language push.
- fernandotakai 4y ago
  i was called out (in private, , by a coworker, not in my current company) for using "he" to reference an user instead of singular "they".
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Has it happened to me? Nope, did it happen to a co-worker, yes it did. Luckily they all worked it out and my friend didn't get fired.
metabagel 4y ago
Great straw man.

vorpalhex 4y ago

I don't see how underlining words like "brown bag", "landlord" and "master" are for the better in any sense. This is virtue signaling - a no cost action meant to make you feel like you are helping people without actually helping people.

metabagel 4y ago
It's not virtue signaling. Virtue signaling would be putting a decal on your car which says "I support the police". You're signaling to the police officer who pulls you over that you're a good police-supporting person, and they should let you off with a warning. No, it's simply a hint that your message might be better received if you change your word usage to something which is more current, more inclusive, or less triggering. For example, in the U.S. the word "master" might be triggering, given that black people were enslaved, tortured, and murdered for hundreds of years in this country. I'm OK to avoid it. If you want to use it, you can ignore the squiggle, but none of this has anything to do with "virtue signaling".
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  I really feel your usage of "enslaved" and "tortured" are not very inclusive. There are people whose ancestors experienced such things, and words like that might be triggering and make them uncomfortable. Maybe you could use friendlier words like "not free" or "hurt"?
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    What’s wrong with what GP just said? They were speaking in a historical relevant context where the words were used in their literal meaning rather than the figurative one that would devalue its meaning outside of pure figurative works.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      This is a form of reductio ad absurdum. If a word like "landlord" can be "triggering" then we can't even discuss actual historical events like slavery or torture, etc (one would at least presume torture to be more triggering than landlord).