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>There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the Ukrainian population was silenced. Fiction. Silenced how? They are in parliament, and unti

>There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the Ukrainian population was silenced. Fiction. Silenced how? They are in parliament, and until recently Russia-sponsored TV propaganda outlets were on the air throughtout Ukraine. >Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist. More fiction. Party of Regions existed after Yanukovych fled and merged into another pro-Russia outfit in 2016. >The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian military. 16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace. But goodie goodie, Russia has come to liberate them, and is now murdering thousands with indiscriminate bombings, to say nothing of the mass executions, rapes and so on. >Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT). This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps.

CapricornNoble 5y ago
>>>>16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace. And how many were bombed by their own government 2014-2019? I get the impression they are still pissed about that. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-demolishes-apartment-block-in-separatist-area-1.2707282 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-dem... Everyone with an interest in this conflict should be searching on DuckDuckGo with their date range set to 2021 at the latest. Western persectives on Zelensky (-2021), perspectives on the conflict in the east (2014-2016), or the really good stuff is Western experts warning about the risks of NATO expansion (set your date range 2000-2010).
- vladgur 5y ago
  The article itself mentions that both sides blame each other without taking accountability. The story of Donetsk and Luhansk is littered with influence by FSB operatives as well pro-Russian ukrainian politics back in 2014. The statement above with civilian deaths being in low double digits in 2021 is correct as the conflict has reached the status quo which had a good chance of being resolved politically. Whatever our stance on the reason behind the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is, we seem to agree that it was pretty bad in 2014-2019 and it has been relatively low-key in 2019(Zelenskiy got elected) and on. Any civilian deaths are terrible, but to put things in perspective: more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict. So any reasoning of Russia attacking Ukraine, flattening cities, destroying civilian buildings as being caused by a conflict in DNR/LNR is pure Russian propaganda.
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    "more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict." Traffic related deaths should not be underestimated, they are more common than people think. In fact, so far more civilians have died in car accidents in Ukraine (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...) than in the conflict (using statistics by the UN https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042). Although I personally don't understand the point of this argument. If "only" 40 people die then it's somehow ok but if 1000 die then military action is suddenly justifiable?
- kspacewalk2 5y ago
  >I get the impression they are still pissed about that. Well, that makes not a lick of sense. A war took place 8 years ago, mostly died down, people lived in relative peace, and now Russia starts a war of aggression on a whole new scale, rains death from the air, unleashes its troops to commit mass murder, takes thousands of civilian lives because "they are still pissed about that"? And pissed about what? Its own actions? Russia instigated a war in 2014 by creating a proxy army out of thin air (and funding, arming and manning it with its own soldiers), then just straight up invaded in August of 2014 with its own regular forces. They routinely bombed civilian areas without any regard for the civilians still in them, used civilians as human shields, positioned MRLS launchers inside apartment blocks, etc. I don't know what happened in the airstrike you brought up, except to say that by July 2014 Ukrainian air force wasn't used much due to Russians bringing in their SAM systems, such as the Buk that shot down MH-17 just two days after this article. Especially in 2014, Ukrainian army was a rag-tag outfit using Soviet-era tactics, and they did occasionally hit civilian areas in situations when a more modern army would be able to avoid it. There were instances where you can say they tactics did not sufficiently account for civilians. There were many more instances where Russia proxies used civilians as shields with success, however, and the Ukrainian military showed restraint. Either way, at the end of the day the blame for wars of aggression has to lie with the aggressor, not the victim that's defending itself. This was true in 2014, and it's sure as fuck true in 2022. Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss.
  - cies 5y ago
    > Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss. Russia now a "fascist dictatorship"? Hmm... What about a western democracy (US) that claims "veto powers over which defensive alliances its" neighour (Cuba) has? But than it is different, right, when it is Nato, and it has scared it's population shitless for "the communists". Then it is allowed to invade... Yeah right. To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".
alexryndin 5y ago
You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction". I really liked your comment: >This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps. I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  > You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. No. It's fiction, because it's not true and completely fabricated. I mean... for years I was told by Russian TV that I am persecuted and discriminated in Lithuania - I'm ethnically Russian from Lithuania. Which is complete BS. They told me that Lithuanians were Nazi collaborators and all resistance to Soviet occupation was just Nazis. Which is a blatant lie. So when I say that nothing that Russian propaganda says is true - I actually mean that not a single word is to be een remotely trusted. > I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) In Lithuania we had a whole scandal, of a Russian school sending kids to a summer camp in Russia. Where they were trained to use guns and taught that Soviet Union was great and Lithuanians are Nazis. Also - Москаляку на гиляку - doesn't translate "hang", it's Send the Russian(singular) to the guillotine. >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere). The attitude in Ukraine towards Nazism is bad. I mean... Nationalists didn't even get 2% in the last elections, not to mention complete lack of Nazis.
- kspacewalk2 5y ago
  >You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction". That is, of course, incorrect, but very telling. Willing victims of Russian propaganda use this line all the time. In fact, very often there is no other side, because facts exist. >I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) You're (pretend-) surprised that a country suffering from an invasion teaches its children to hate and wish to harm the invaders? If you think that's bad, I got news for you, champ. It is now officially quite legal to put an invading moskalyaka onto that tree branch right now, or take them out in more modern ways. Ukrainians are allowed to fight against the occupying force using any means necessary, and they do. Not only is there nothing wrong with killing an invader who attacks your home and murders your neighbours, it is a noble and just thing to do. >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere). Nazi Germany and Zigist Russia indeed doesn't happen everywhere, only in places where the ruling despot becomes a deluded fascist, drunk on his own power and trying to pass his own ignorant mis-understanding of history as reality.

CapricornNoble 5y ago

>>>>16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace. And how many were bombed by their own government 2014-2019? I get the impression they are still pissed about that. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-demolishes-apartment-block-in-separatist-area-1.2707282 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-dem... Everyone with an interest in this conflict should be searching on DuckDuckGo with their date range set to 2021 at the latest. Western persectives on Zelensky (-2021), perspectives on the conflict in the east (2014-2016), or the really good stuff is Western experts warning about the risks of NATO expansion (set your date range 2000-2010).

vladgur 5y ago
The article itself mentions that both sides blame each other without taking accountability. The story of Donetsk and Luhansk is littered with influence by FSB operatives as well pro-Russian ukrainian politics back in 2014. The statement above with civilian deaths being in low double digits in 2021 is correct as the conflict has reached the status quo which had a good chance of being resolved politically. Whatever our stance on the reason behind the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is, we seem to agree that it was pretty bad in 2014-2019 and it has been relatively low-key in 2019(Zelenskiy got elected) and on. Any civilian deaths are terrible, but to put things in perspective: more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict. So any reasoning of Russia attacking Ukraine, flattening cities, destroying civilian buildings as being caused by a conflict in DNR/LNR is pure Russian propaganda.
- ttybird2 5y ago
  "more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict." Traffic related deaths should not be underestimated, they are more common than people think. In fact, so far more civilians have died in car accidents in Ukraine (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...) than in the conflict (using statistics by the UN https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042). Although I personally don't understand the point of this argument. If "only" 40 people die then it's somehow ok but if 1000 die then military action is suddenly justifiable?
kspacewalk2 5y ago
>I get the impression they are still pissed about that. Well, that makes not a lick of sense. A war took place 8 years ago, mostly died down, people lived in relative peace, and now Russia starts a war of aggression on a whole new scale, rains death from the air, unleashes its troops to commit mass murder, takes thousands of civilian lives because "they are still pissed about that"? And pissed about what? Its own actions? Russia instigated a war in 2014 by creating a proxy army out of thin air (and funding, arming and manning it with its own soldiers), then just straight up invaded in August of 2014 with its own regular forces. They routinely bombed civilian areas without any regard for the civilians still in them, used civilians as human shields, positioned MRLS launchers inside apartment blocks, etc. I don't know what happened in the airstrike you brought up, except to say that by July 2014 Ukrainian air force wasn't used much due to Russians bringing in their SAM systems, such as the Buk that shot down MH-17 just two days after this article. Especially in 2014, Ukrainian army was a rag-tag outfit using Soviet-era tactics, and they did occasionally hit civilian areas in situations when a more modern army would be able to avoid it. There were instances where you can say they tactics did not sufficiently account for civilians. There were many more instances where Russia proxies used civilians as shields with success, however, and the Ukrainian military showed restraint. Either way, at the end of the day the blame for wars of aggression has to lie with the aggressor, not the victim that's defending itself. This was true in 2014, and it's sure as fuck true in 2022. Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss.
- cies 5y ago
  > Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss. Russia now a "fascist dictatorship"? Hmm... What about a western democracy (US) that claims "veto powers over which defensive alliances its" neighour (Cuba) has? But than it is different, right, when it is Nato, and it has scared it's population shitless for "the communists". Then it is allowed to invade... Yeah right. To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".

alexryndin 5y ago

You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction". I really liked your comment: >This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps. I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).

JAlexoid 5y ago
> You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. No. It's fiction, because it's not true and completely fabricated. I mean... for years I was told by Russian TV that I am persecuted and discriminated in Lithuania - I'm ethnically Russian from Lithuania. Which is complete BS. They told me that Lithuanians were Nazi collaborators and all resistance to Soviet occupation was just Nazis. Which is a blatant lie. So when I say that nothing that Russian propaganda says is true - I actually mean that not a single word is to be een remotely trusted. > I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) In Lithuania we had a whole scandal, of a Russian school sending kids to a summer camp in Russia. Where they were trained to use guns and taught that Soviet Union was great and Lithuanians are Nazis. Also - Москаляку на гиляку - doesn't translate "hang", it's Send the Russian(singular) to the guillotine. >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere). The attitude in Ukraine towards Nazism is bad. I mean... Nationalists didn't even get 2% in the last elections, not to mention complete lack of Nazis.
kspacewalk2 5y ago
>You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction". That is, of course, incorrect, but very telling. Willing victims of Russian propaganda use this line all the time. In fact, very often there is no other side, because facts exist. >I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians) You're (pretend-) surprised that a country suffering from an invasion teaches its children to hate and wish to harm the invaders? If you think that's bad, I got news for you, champ. It is now officially quite legal to put an invading moskalyaka onto that tree branch right now, or take them out in more modern ways. Ukrainians are allowed to fight against the occupying force using any means necessary, and they do. Not only is there nothing wrong with killing an invader who attacks your home and murders your neighbours, it is a noble and just thing to do. >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere). Nazi Germany and Zigist Russia indeed doesn't happen everywhere, only in places where the ruling despot becomes a deluded fascist, drunk on his own power and trying to pass his own ignorant mis-understanding of history as reality.