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I don't get the fawning over Tesla -- their cars aren't that great, they aren't a great tech company ... they're valued highly and that's cool for their shareho

I don't get the fawning over Tesla -- their cars aren't that great, they aren't a great tech company ... they're valued highly and that's cool for their shareholders I guess but why would we want them in charge of any public infrastructure?

jelliclesfarm 5y ago
I had hopes for ZooX, but they kinda disappeared. Was promising and then became dodgy. I can’t think of any other company except Tesla and they have more beta testers than any other company for FSD. One reason I think the govt cannot be trusted with public infrastructure (again, California centric) is HSR. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail ) After two decades it still stalls with them working on the budget that has gone from 30 billion to 100 billion. No one in CA trusts the govt anymore for development of public infrastructure. But who else? I hardly think Ford would try to bid for it.
VirusNewbie 5y ago
Can you name a car for the price of the model 3 that you think is better than the model 3? I was a huge fan of BMWs and was ready to get one, and then I drove a Tesla, and really nothing in the price range compared. The tesla is far from perfect, its suspension isn't as tight or tuned as most sport package BMWs, but everything else is much better for the price imo. For ~45k can you get an electric car that has similar acceleration, over the air updates, autopilot like capabilities, ease of charging and comfort?
- tldrthelaw 5y ago
  Well first, isn't it more like $52k now with base model + autopilot? If you draw the constraints close enough to the Model 3, you aren't going to find anything that beats the Model 3. I'd argue acceleration doesn't really belong on that list for most folks -- if it does for you, then go Model 3. Same goes for over the air updates. Most people just want an electric car to behave like an ICE car but not need 1) gas and 2) as much maintenance. Beyond that, I reckon the pertinent bit when deciding if they'd get this hypothetical contract to build public infrastructure wouldn't be whether a single vehicle is now a good car in its class but how we got here. They have been bedeviled with build quality problems throughout their time -- as late as 2020 you had the weird wooden pieces and tape holding HVAC components together. That doesn't bode well for their crack at public infrastructure. They weren't profitable until recently and nearly went bankrupt. Not great. Their placement of service centers leaves a lot to be desired. Rolling out geographically is something they'll need to figure out for the project. New models are continually met with production delays. Not ideal. So in sum depending on what you want I think the Leaf is a better entry level option, despite ChaDeMo, but it doesn't compete against anything because Tesla doesn't have anything you could call entry level. The Ioniq or Mach-E (despite gross Ford) are better midsize options. If you want performance, go Taycan. I'm not saying the Tesla is a terrible car by any means, I just think its overvalued as against what it provides and what the company is actually achieving. Being first is worth something, and I'm sure they'll be around for a long time because of it. I still don't want them in charge of our public infrastructure. P.S. Also the Boring Company seems dead after having given up on the hyper loop idea and slowly backpedaled.
  - VirusNewbie 5y ago
    I think you have a bone to pick with Tesla, if you're singling them out for build quality issues when we know many other manufacturers have them as well. Tesla might have some different build quality issues (like their panel gaps being worse than other manufacturers, or their noise isolation being behind luxury brands) but plenty of other manufacturers have terrible build quality. Also, plenty of other manufacturers have almost gone bankrupt (or gone bankrupt) as well. Mach-e looks like a great option. I'm skeptical their autopilot will work as well but it certainly looks like tesla has some competitors, but we'll see if they can scale up production.
- marssaxman 5y ago
  How much more would I have to pay to ensure the car does not have any over-the-air updates or autopilot like capabilities?
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    Curious. What is the issue with OTA updates?
    - tldrthelaw 5y ago
      I don't have a Tesla, but I have a Zero Motorcycle (electric, doesn't have OTA) and I can tell you most updates you don't want right away. I'm guessing Tesla is no different.
    - marssaxman 5y ago
      I don't want a machine I depend on to change its behavior out from under me. I don't trust the manufacturer to make only changes that are in my best interest - or, more simply, to only make changes which suit my preferences. I would rather evaluate the machine before I choose to buy it, buy it as it is, and feel secure knowing that it will continue to be nothing more and nothing less than what I bought, unless I decide I want to upgrade or change it.
      - VirusNewbie 5y ago
        sorry were you under the impression it updates without you asking? I am given a prompt if I would like to upgrade, and it has a list of component changes. Also, your car is likely updated at the dealership unless you specifically ask them not to update, in which case, you could just not do the tesla updates.
        marssaxman 5y ago
        What happens if you say "no"? Update systems generally seem to just nag you relentlessly until you give in and accept whatever the designers want; does the Tesla system actually go away when you tell it to? If so, then maybe I wouldn't hate it so much. I've never actually taken a car back to a dealership.

jelliclesfarm 5y ago

I had hopes for ZooX, but they kinda disappeared. Was promising and then became dodgy. I can’t think of any other company except Tesla and they have more beta testers than any other company for FSD. One reason I think the govt cannot be trusted with public infrastructure (again, California centric) is HSR. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail ) After two decades it still stalls with them working on the budget that has gone from 30 billion to 100 billion. No one in CA trusts the govt anymore for development of public infrastructure. But who else? I hardly think Ford would try to bid for it.

VirusNewbie 5y ago

Can you name a car for the price of the model 3 that you think is better than the model 3? I was a huge fan of BMWs and was ready to get one, and then I drove a Tesla, and really nothing in the price range compared. The tesla is far from perfect, its suspension isn't as tight or tuned as most sport package BMWs, but everything else is much better for the price imo. For ~45k can you get an electric car that has similar acceleration, over the air updates, autopilot like capabilities, ease of charging and comfort?

tldrthelaw 5y ago
Well first, isn't it more like $52k now with base model + autopilot? If you draw the constraints close enough to the Model 3, you aren't going to find anything that beats the Model 3. I'd argue acceleration doesn't really belong on that list for most folks -- if it does for you, then go Model 3. Same goes for over the air updates. Most people just want an electric car to behave like an ICE car but not need 1) gas and 2) as much maintenance. Beyond that, I reckon the pertinent bit when deciding if they'd get this hypothetical contract to build public infrastructure wouldn't be whether a single vehicle is now a good car in its class but how we got here. They have been bedeviled with build quality problems throughout their time -- as late as 2020 you had the weird wooden pieces and tape holding HVAC components together. That doesn't bode well for their crack at public infrastructure. They weren't profitable until recently and nearly went bankrupt. Not great. Their placement of service centers leaves a lot to be desired. Rolling out geographically is something they'll need to figure out for the project. New models are continually met with production delays. Not ideal. So in sum depending on what you want I think the Leaf is a better entry level option, despite ChaDeMo, but it doesn't compete against anything because Tesla doesn't have anything you could call entry level. The Ioniq or Mach-E (despite gross Ford) are better midsize options. If you want performance, go Taycan. I'm not saying the Tesla is a terrible car by any means, I just think its overvalued as against what it provides and what the company is actually achieving. Being first is worth something, and I'm sure they'll be around for a long time because of it. I still don't want them in charge of our public infrastructure. P.S. Also the Boring Company seems dead after having given up on the hyper loop idea and slowly backpedaled.
- VirusNewbie 5y ago
  I think you have a bone to pick with Tesla, if you're singling them out for build quality issues when we know many other manufacturers have them as well. Tesla might have some different build quality issues (like their panel gaps being worse than other manufacturers, or their noise isolation being behind luxury brands) but plenty of other manufacturers have terrible build quality. Also, plenty of other manufacturers have almost gone bankrupt (or gone bankrupt) as well. Mach-e looks like a great option. I'm skeptical their autopilot will work as well but it certainly looks like tesla has some competitors, but we'll see if they can scale up production.
marssaxman 5y ago
How much more would I have to pay to ensure the car does not have any over-the-air updates or autopilot like capabilities?
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  Curious. What is the issue with OTA updates?
  - tldrthelaw 5y ago
    I don't have a Tesla, but I have a Zero Motorcycle (electric, doesn't have OTA) and I can tell you most updates you don't want right away. I'm guessing Tesla is no different.
  - marssaxman 5y ago
    I don't want a machine I depend on to change its behavior out from under me. I don't trust the manufacturer to make only changes that are in my best interest - or, more simply, to only make changes which suit my preferences. I would rather evaluate the machine before I choose to buy it, buy it as it is, and feel secure knowing that it will continue to be nothing more and nothing less than what I bought, unless I decide I want to upgrade or change it.
    - VirusNewbie 5y ago
      sorry were you under the impression it updates without you asking? I am given a prompt if I would like to upgrade, and it has a list of component changes. Also, your car is likely updated at the dealership unless you specifically ask them not to update, in which case, you could just not do the tesla updates.
      - marssaxman 5y ago
        What happens if you say "no"? Update systems generally seem to just nag you relentlessly until you give in and accept whatever the designers want; does the Tesla system actually go away when you tell it to? If so, then maybe I wouldn't hate it so much. I've never actually taken a car back to a dealership.