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That's russian propaganda. -> Russian - speaking Ukrainians want to join RF -> Symmetry in action between Ukraine and Russia (we do bad things, but they do th

That's russian propaganda. -> Russian - speaking Ukrainians want to join RF -> Symmetry in action between Ukraine and Russia (we do bad things, but they do them too) -> Ukrainians are nazis These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.

themgt 4y ago
Having any more nuanced position regarding world affairs than "our guys: good. their guys: bad" is bad guy propaganda.
CapricornNoble 4y ago
>>> Ukrainians are nazis >>These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-... https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/ https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms... https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/ https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/ http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov... Here's a choice quote from this article: “Ukraine should be for Ukrainians,” Lemko said. “We don’t need the European idea of multicultural extremism here. Ukraine must protect its cultural and ethnic integrity.” I'm sure Mr Lemko from Canada was actually a double agent planted by Putin... /sarc
- acidioxide 4y ago
  I am fully aware of ukrainian nationalists. During II world war and after Ukrainian Insurgent Army has committed genocide on polish civilians killing 50 - 60 thousand. But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on.
  - CapricornNoble 4y ago
    >>>But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on. Sure, but there is a big gulf between "Ukrainian Nazis are Kremlin misinformation" and "We recognize some of your people are morally questionable but still desire to arm/equip you in the justified defense of your homeland." We used to be much more honest with ourselves when we were getting in bed with useful bastards (Werner von Braun running our space program and Eric von Manstein "advising" the post-war Bundeswehr are two of my favorites). Messaging has devolved into a very simplistic good/bad binary model when reality is much more grey.
    - lotusmars 4y ago
      The funny and somewhat ironic thing is that neo-Nazis (like RNE or Barkashov's movement or Dugin) are thriving in Russia if they collaborate with Kremlin. They also enjoy widespread financial support by companies associated with Kremlin all over the world especially if they are viable candidates on European elections. This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi.
      - CapricornNoble 4y ago
        >>>This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi. Very true. The leader of Wagner, Russia's infamous private military contractor, has SS lightning bolts tatooed on his neck. If it weren't for innocent civilians dying, it would easily be a war where we shouldn't care which variety of asshole loses. https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst...
- vladgur 4y ago
  I dont think anyone is denying that there were fringe nationalist groups in Ukraine, just like nobody can deny that there are fringe nationalist groups in US(Remember "Jews wont replace us" chanting blokes in 2020) or fringe nationalist groups in Russia(See the video of Rogozin, who leads Russia's space agency, participating in Moscow' nationalist meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc ). A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true than when its spewed by Russian propaganda machine
  - CapricornNoble 4y ago
    >>>A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true Read Bellingcat's coverage of the problem from 2019: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukr... Azov members have close access to major Ukrainian politicians, including Arsen Avakov, the (now-former) Interior Minister. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/
    - vladgur 4y ago
      I agree that inviting representatives of right-wing groups to a meeting with Zelensky on veterans affairs is a political mistake. That does not negate the fact that these right-wing organizations, including "Right Sector" had negligible popular support and won exactly 0 seats in Verhovna Rada. Again a very poor reason to invade a neighboring country
    - krzyk 4y ago
      Azov is not what you think it is. It is like complaining that a general has access to any Ministry.
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  None of these actually address the statements above. You're trying to derail this, by providing links that aren't in direct contradiction to the statements.

themgt 4y ago

Having any more nuanced position regarding world affairs than "our guys: good. their guys: bad" is bad guy propaganda.

CapricornNoble 4y ago

>>> Ukrainians are nazis >>These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-... https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/ https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms... https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/ https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/ http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov... Here's a choice quote from this article: “Ukraine should be for Ukrainians,” Lemko said. “We don’t need the European idea of multicultural extremism here. Ukraine must protect its cultural and ethnic integrity.” I'm sure Mr Lemko from Canada was actually a double agent planted by Putin... /sarc

acidioxide 4y ago
I am fully aware of ukrainian nationalists. During II world war and after Ukrainian Insurgent Army has committed genocide on polish civilians killing 50 - 60 thousand. But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on.
- CapricornNoble 4y ago
  >>>But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on. Sure, but there is a big gulf between "Ukrainian Nazis are Kremlin misinformation" and "We recognize some of your people are morally questionable but still desire to arm/equip you in the justified defense of your homeland." We used to be much more honest with ourselves when we were getting in bed with useful bastards (Werner von Braun running our space program and Eric von Manstein "advising" the post-war Bundeswehr are two of my favorites). Messaging has devolved into a very simplistic good/bad binary model when reality is much more grey.
  - lotusmars 4y ago
    The funny and somewhat ironic thing is that neo-Nazis (like RNE or Barkashov's movement or Dugin) are thriving in Russia if they collaborate with Kremlin. They also enjoy widespread financial support by companies associated with Kremlin all over the world especially if they are viable candidates on European elections. This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi.
    - CapricornNoble 4y ago
      >>>This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi. Very true. The leader of Wagner, Russia's infamous private military contractor, has SS lightning bolts tatooed on his neck. If it weren't for innocent civilians dying, it would easily be a war where we shouldn't care which variety of asshole loses. https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst...
vladgur 4y ago
I dont think anyone is denying that there were fringe nationalist groups in Ukraine, just like nobody can deny that there are fringe nationalist groups in US(Remember "Jews wont replace us" chanting blokes in 2020) or fringe nationalist groups in Russia(See the video of Rogozin, who leads Russia's space agency, participating in Moscow' nationalist meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc ). A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true than when its spewed by Russian propaganda machine
- CapricornNoble 4y ago
  >>>A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true Read Bellingcat's coverage of the problem from 2019: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukr... Azov members have close access to major Ukrainian politicians, including Arsen Avakov, the (now-former) Interior Minister. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/
  - vladgur 4y ago
    I agree that inviting representatives of right-wing groups to a meeting with Zelensky on veterans affairs is a political mistake. That does not negate the fact that these right-wing organizations, including "Right Sector" had negligible popular support and won exactly 0 seats in Verhovna Rada. Again a very poor reason to invade a neighboring country
  - krzyk 4y ago
    Azov is not what you think it is. It is like complaining that a general has access to any Ministry.
JAlexoid 4y ago
None of these actually address the statements above. You're trying to derail this, by providing links that aren't in direct contradiction to the statements.