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> In particular dog-shit has more intrinsic value than NFTs. That’s a kind of weird thing to say. NFTs are uniquely identifiable, self-executing code, that co

> In particular dog-shit has more intrinsic value than NFTs. That’s a kind of weird thing to say. NFTs are uniquely identifiable, self-executing code, that conveys legal ownership to the holder of the NFT. NFTs can and often do represent ownership of an asset, sometimes the asset. That in and of itself gives NFTs tremendous amount of intrinsic value as a tool that represents title of ownership and can facilitate trust-less transfer of title/ownership. I think you are right NFTs in their current use case are most often, but not entirely, used to represent ownership of classes of assets that are meant to be transferred/sold, but intrinsically NFTs still value as a tool that can represent ownership of a give asset. In other words one might say dog-shit has more intrinsic value than a written contract, except that contracts can and often do create enforceable terms (though not always) thus giving contracts intrinsic value, as evidenced by contracts being one of the most successful tools in all of human history as part of the historic record as far back as the written record goes.

JackFr 4y ago
> NFTs are uniquely identifiable, self-executing code, that conveys legal ownership to the holder of the NFT. > NFTs can and often do represent ownership of an asset, sometimes the asset. > That in and of itself gives NFTs tremendous amount of intrinsic value as a tool that represents title of ownership and can facilitate trust-less transfer of title/ownership. That is a lot of word salad. Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority? My understanding is that the answer to that question is "No", invariably presented as "No, but..." Is my understanding wrong?
- volkk 4y ago
  > Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority? I can use my imagination and predict a future where some form of the tech can be. But on a different note, traditional art doesn't need to be understood by any existing legal authority and people collect art. Although a lot of high value art is also used for money laundering. I just don't see a huge difference between the two in the creative category and at least NFTs have some interesting tech to them.
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    > traditional art doesn't need to be understood by any existing legal authority and people collect art The content of the artwork is immaterial. Physical possession and real ownership are very well legal concepts and well covered by the corpus of laws essentially everywhere. There's even international laws covering possession of physical things.
- throwawaycities 4y ago
  > That is a lot of word salad. Well legal nuance often is. > Is my understanding wrong? Yes. NFTs can convey ownership of real, personal and/or IP. For example, take Bored Apes Yacht Club NFTs. If you own a BAYC NFT, then you receive commercial IP rights to an underlying image. Assuming we both reside somewhere in the US, if I were to begin commercially producing products bearing your image, then you individually (as opposed to Larva Labs the company that created the copyrighted image) could sue me for injunctive relief and damages. Alternatively, if someone were to mug you and force you to open your phone and transfer your BAYC NFT to their wallet, it would most likely be considered grand theft because the dollar amount of the property involved. Further, you would also have a remedy in civil law to sue the criminal for the damages. It’s not treated any differently that any other property theft. And of course if you buy the BAYC NFT and later sell it for a profit, the IRS treats it as a capital gain and you have to pay taxes subject to penalties and enforcement action. From the legal perspective most recently Wyoming passed a law creating and establishing the first DAO LLC legal entity, which is a LLC that can be algorithmically managed by smart contracts/holders of NFTs. This further formalizes legal recognition under the law.
- burnished 4y ago
  >>"Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority?" Conceivably you could use it the same way you'd use a ticket to be redeemed for a later good or service which would presumably be recognized by existing legal authority. I haven't heard of any actual NFTs that granted any powers that your average pog doesn't though.
  - throwawaycities 4y ago
    > I haven't heard of any actual NFTs that granted any powers that your average pog doesn't though. Not sure how familiar you are with the NFT space, in another comment I used Bored Ape Yacht Club as an example, let’s start with that. If you own a pog, does that give you commercial rights to monetize the copyrighted artwork on the pog? Admittedly I’m not overly familiar with the pog market, but I don’t think purchase of any pog gives the own any underlying commercial rights to the IP. It’s true not every NFT/NFT collection bestows the owner with commercial rights to a copyrighted work, but Bored Ape Yacht Club NFTs is just one example which provides owners commercial rights to the underlying copyrighted image. More importantly copyrighted works, like artwork, are not the only assets an NFT can represent. Further, you are correct with your example that they can be, and in fact have been, used to represent the right to redeem for a specific good/service by any bearer. Ticketing is in fact one such real world example.
    - 8note 4y ago
      I can make you a pog that does that, yeah. It's just a matter of writing it on the pog. I can make you a pog that bans you from a club while you hold it too, for the bored apes example. Generally a bouncer will remember you when you come back the next day without the log though, which is a slightly better ban than NFTs can handle What I can't do is make a pog that burns your house down when you try to sell it or give it away. That's a feature unique to NFTs afaik
    - burnished 4y ago
      You attach to the pog the same meaning in the same way. Non-fungible tokens by design solve the problem around "how do I trust that this is the correct token", but thats only a problem you need to solve in low trust environments.
contravariant 4y ago
Sure NFTs can be a useful tool, but they are more of an 'idea' than an object at that point so it gets hard to assign a value to them. Indeed the whole problem here is that we're trying to assign intrinsic value to something which isn't fungible in the first place (which makes the notion of a market for them somewhat problematic). So yeah I'm going to maintain that NFTs are, by design, all extrinsic value. And if someone is offering free NFTs or free dog shit you're more likely to get some use out of the latter.
- throwawaycities 4y ago
  > And if someone is offering free NFTs or free dog shit you're more likely to get some use out of the latter. I only own 1 NFT that was free to mint (NFT Worlds) and the floor value is ~$20k, plus they airdropped some tokens worth over $5k. It also just so happens this is one of the NFTs someone will get more use out of than dog shit. Market value aside, the intrinsic value of the NFT is that at any moment I can trustlessly make it available for acquisition and the prospective buyer doesn’t need to worry that it’s a counterfeit, and I don’t need to worry about any chargeback. However, you are correct that depending on the asset a given NFT represents, there could be additional real world components rendering the NFT to something of legal title to a real world asset, but the intrinsic value of the NFT remains (the ability to trustlessly sell/acquire legal title in a censorship resistant global market).

JackFr 4y ago

> NFTs are uniquely identifiable, self-executing code, that conveys legal ownership to the holder of the NFT. > NFTs can and often do represent ownership of an asset, sometimes the asset. > That in and of itself gives NFTs tremendous amount of intrinsic value as a tool that represents title of ownership and can facilitate trust-less transfer of title/ownership. That is a lot of word salad. Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority? My understanding is that the answer to that question is "No", invariably presented as "No, but..." Is my understanding wrong?

volkk 4y ago
> Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority? I can use my imagination and predict a future where some form of the tech can be. But on a different note, traditional art doesn't need to be understood by any existing legal authority and people collect art. Although a lot of high value art is also used for money laundering. I just don't see a huge difference between the two in the creative category and at least NFTs have some interesting tech to them.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  > traditional art doesn't need to be understood by any existing legal authority and people collect art The content of the artwork is immaterial. Physical possession and real ownership are very well legal concepts and well covered by the corpus of laws essentially everywhere. There's even international laws covering possession of physical things.
throwawaycities 4y ago
> That is a lot of word salad. Well legal nuance often is. > Is my understanding wrong? Yes. NFTs can convey ownership of real, personal and/or IP. For example, take Bored Apes Yacht Club NFTs. If you own a BAYC NFT, then you receive commercial IP rights to an underlying image. Assuming we both reside somewhere in the US, if I were to begin commercially producing products bearing your image, then you individually (as opposed to Larva Labs the company that created the copyrighted image) could sue me for injunctive relief and damages. Alternatively, if someone were to mug you and force you to open your phone and transfer your BAYC NFT to their wallet, it would most likely be considered grand theft because the dollar amount of the property involved. Further, you would also have a remedy in civil law to sue the criminal for the damages. It’s not treated any differently that any other property theft. And of course if you buy the BAYC NFT and later sell it for a profit, the IRS treats it as a capital gain and you have to pay taxes subject to penalties and enforcement action. From the legal perspective most recently Wyoming passed a law creating and establishing the first DAO LLC legal entity, which is a LLC that can be algorithmically managed by smart contracts/holders of NFTs. This further formalizes legal recognition under the law.
burnished 4y ago
>>"Does an NFT confer ownership to any real, personal or intellectual property as understood by any currently existing legal authority?" Conceivably you could use it the same way you'd use a ticket to be redeemed for a later good or service which would presumably be recognized by existing legal authority. I haven't heard of any actual NFTs that granted any powers that your average pog doesn't though.
- throwawaycities 4y ago
  > I haven't heard of any actual NFTs that granted any powers that your average pog doesn't though. Not sure how familiar you are with the NFT space, in another comment I used Bored Ape Yacht Club as an example, let’s start with that. If you own a pog, does that give you commercial rights to monetize the copyrighted artwork on the pog? Admittedly I’m not overly familiar with the pog market, but I don’t think purchase of any pog gives the own any underlying commercial rights to the IP. It’s true not every NFT/NFT collection bestows the owner with commercial rights to a copyrighted work, but Bored Ape Yacht Club NFTs is just one example which provides owners commercial rights to the underlying copyrighted image. More importantly copyrighted works, like artwork, are not the only assets an NFT can represent. Further, you are correct with your example that they can be, and in fact have been, used to represent the right to redeem for a specific good/service by any bearer. Ticketing is in fact one such real world example.
  - 8note 4y ago
    I can make you a pog that does that, yeah. It's just a matter of writing it on the pog. I can make you a pog that bans you from a club while you hold it too, for the bored apes example. Generally a bouncer will remember you when you come back the next day without the log though, which is a slightly better ban than NFTs can handle What I can't do is make a pog that burns your house down when you try to sell it or give it away. That's a feature unique to NFTs afaik
  - burnished 4y ago
    You attach to the pog the same meaning in the same way. Non-fungible tokens by design solve the problem around "how do I trust that this is the correct token", but thats only a problem you need to solve in low trust environments.

contravariant 4y ago

Sure NFTs can be a useful tool, but they are more of an 'idea' than an object at that point so it gets hard to assign a value to them. Indeed the whole problem here is that we're trying to assign intrinsic value to something which isn't fungible in the first place (which makes the notion of a market for them somewhat problematic). So yeah I'm going to maintain that NFTs are, by design, all extrinsic value. And if someone is offering free NFTs or free dog shit you're more likely to get some use out of the latter.

throwawaycities 4y ago
> And if someone is offering free NFTs or free dog shit you're more likely to get some use out of the latter. I only own 1 NFT that was free to mint (NFT Worlds) and the floor value is ~$20k, plus they airdropped some tokens worth over $5k. It also just so happens this is one of the NFTs someone will get more use out of than dog shit. Market value aside, the intrinsic value of the NFT is that at any moment I can trustlessly make it available for acquisition and the prospective buyer doesn’t need to worry that it’s a counterfeit, and I don’t need to worry about any chargeback. However, you are correct that depending on the asset a given NFT represents, there could be additional real world components rendering the NFT to something of legal title to a real world asset, but the intrinsic value of the NFT remains (the ability to trustlessly sell/acquire legal title in a censorship resistant global market).